Which book is telling bond-maids not to kneel?

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May 2012

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[Winter Phoenix]

I first read Marauders in 79.  So I've been a fan of Normans stuff for a long time.
I came to SL as a Gorean from another venue in 2004,
so Ive seen the evolution of the SL Gorean scenerio from the start.
But recently Ive noticed something Ive not encountered before.
The bond-maid who feels she doesnt have to kneel before a freeman.
The first time I noticed this was when a slave I had once owned paid me a visit.
We had been friends a long time, so this was a social call.
After two minutes of her standing in front of me I said something like,
"  If you dont kneel within next few seconds, Im going to kick your legs out from under you. "
To which she responded:
" But Jarl, I am a bond."
To which I was like,  "yahh and???"
She then tells me her owner forbids her to kneel to anyone but him, and now I just figure
shes owned by some idiot who likes to see his girl return from the market all the time with somebody elses
whip marks all over her.
I didnt think of this as a fad at the time, since she was the first I'd heard of this.
However, the other night I decided to visit a sim I had never been to.
And in this rather large Torvald sim,  the first person I encounter is a bond-maid.
Some kind of Torvie coin girl.  And I ask her a few questions,  and as Im doing this I notice
shes not kneeling.  It appears shes going to stand there as long as I am.
And I say,  " Dont tell me this is one of those sims where bond-maids do not kneel"
and shes says, " Yah, we dont kneel much.  We're BOND MAIDS."
A wtf moment.  And I replied, " I grew up in the Torvaldsland,  and where I came from
"BOND-MAIDS KNEW WHEN TO FRIGGIN KNEEL."
So it appears some have taken liberties with Norman canon in regards to the high farm girls.
And this interpretation has created girls who come across as insolent.
A bond-maid may be proud of her forwardness or her work ethic above and beyond the whispy
silk sticks of the south,  but this does not constitute an entitlement to stand amongst the free.
If one wishes to make the point that because bonds are so busy, they dont have time to kneel,
or that since bonds just go and grab the mead without taking orders first,  that they dont have time to kneel.
Or they are milking the bosk, or some other chore and dont have time to kneel.
I suggest...
 Squat when milking the bosk, lean over the table and let a freeman sniff your neck while pouring the other guys honeywine,
you dont have to drop into a 'karta' just cus I walk by you on the street.
But by the grace of friggin' Odin you had best be kneeling when I am talking to you for five minutes!
Someone wants to explain the phenominon I am encountering,  I'd be happy to listen.
I wish you most well,  Winter of Nykus

[Conall DeCuir]

It's them thinking they are a sort of better slaves and the thinking of their owners, that their girlfriend is right. The last one i corrected left the sim.

But tell me, wtf is a coin-bond ? 

[Alaria Voss]

*wades into the discussion with her copper tarsk bit's worth* 

There was a time, not all that long ago, in SL gor that ALL slaves did was kneel.  The prepared drinks "on their knees", they even reached the very top shelf of the cupboard...."from their knees", and let's not forget the duck walk special, ...ya know, not even releasing the kneel to walk so up and down like a  yoyo and most AO's were overriden by the collar, so no smexy walk....

Now I find that more unrealistic than a slave who doesn't immediately drop to her knees, but I will clarify that comment some....

Kajirae and bonds alike are often "on a task".  It would be rediculous to assume they would stop and kneel for every man, or free woman for that matter, in the completion of the task. 

Now there comes a time when it becomes situational though.  If a slave is stopped on a task and asked a simple question, she might choose to respond to it and be on her way again without kneeling (at her own peril of course, it may be the free person would take offense, then again, perhaps they would not, DEPENDENT on what the slave was doing at that particular moment - an example might be perhaps a slave is cooking, stiring a bubbling pot of stew, to stop that task, might well end up with stew ruined, so she risks getting beaten for not kneeling, or beaten for ruining dinner ~  yeah sometimes it sucks to be a slave, damned if you do, damned if you don't!)

I suspect, if there is a meter of snow on the ground that kneeling outside would not generally be advisable, just as I imagine in the heat of the desert, outside and not in the shade, kneeling on the sands could well cause a slave damage.  Again it is situational, big picture stuff!

Saying bond maids don't kneel, is rediculous also, of course they did!  They are slaves, chattle, property and if a free person says "kneel" they better hit their knees or face the consequences.   Also Bonds didn't tend serve from their knees like a southern "silkie" they are more inclined to crawl into a man's lap and serve from there.   ICly Ala is still trying to work out how to serve at "high tables"...if she kneels her nose doesn't even reach the top of the table, and if she stands, she risks being considered rude!   

What I don't get, and never will I guess, is why the players of a slave, when commanded to kneel, have to go OOC to argue, or worse, risk more punishment and argue IC.  If a free person, comands a slave to kneel,  whether she be a bond, a silkie, a tuchuk, a paga slut, a coin slut, a high slave or the love slave of the Ubar...shouldn't she just obey?

[Junea Demonia]

What I don't get, and never will I guess, is why the players of a slave, when commanded to kneel, have to go OOC to argue, or worse, risk more punishment and argue IC.  If a free person, comands a slave to kneel,  whether she be a bond, a silkie, a tuchuk, a paga slut, a coin slut, a high slave or the love slave of the Ubar...shouldn't she just obey?

Exactly! That is the answer to all of it and slave role players should learn that first about the character they choose to play. All role players should learn first to leave the OOC stuff out of role play and just go with what is happening in rp - and a slave being told to do something does it - or suffers the consequences. When the OOC agreements with owners and the unreasonable OOC limits come out - I lose interest and walk away.

When I played a slave I usually had fun with the bonds that were so proud of being a bond. I let them go on and on about how different they are and how hard they work - and then to clarify I asked them, "So you are so proud of wearing crappy clothes and digging in shit all day?" And then, of course, I went on to describe what a pampered love slave I was and that I only slept on silk pillow and ate the best food from the hand of my owner who never looked at another slave. All lies of course - but my slave character had a very lively imagination 

[Finn Ronas]

Throws his copper bit in.

Bondmaids as we know serve on their feet moving quickly between the people in the hall. That they do not kneel is a falacy, however they do not wait around to be tasked they are (or should be) on the move working and serving. They do not kneel around waiting for work or appearing idle or they will receive a boot up the arse. They will kneel when told to and no owner can contradict that if he is not there that is madness.

Outside in the cold and snow why would you have your slave kneel in it unless you are punishing them or are some sort of sadist.

I do agree that slaves in SL Gor are too much on their knees but that is a totally different topic.. Probably a medical one for the damage to the joints that the constant up and down would cause.

[Aphris Myoo]

But tell me, wtf is a coin-bond ? 

The girl of a pimp-Jarl

[Aphris Myoo]

Throws his copper bit in.

In the box of the coin-bond? 

[Shyla Timeless]

*wades into the discussion with her copper tarsk bit's worth* 

There was a time, not all that long ago, in SL gor that ALL slaves did was kneel.  The prepared drinks "on their knees", they even reached the very top shelf of the cupboard...."from their knees", and let's not forget the duck walk special, ...ya know, not even releasing the kneel to walk so up and down like a  yoyo and most AO's were overriden by the collar, so no smexy walk....

Now I find that more unrealistic than a slave who doesn't immediately drop to her knees, but I will clarify that comment some....

Kajirae and bonds alike are often "on a task".  It would be rediculous to assume they would stop and kneel for every man, or free woman for that matter, in the completion of the task. 

Now there comes a time when it becomes situational though.  If a slave is stopped on a task and asked a simple question, she might choose to respond to it and be on her way again without kneeling (at her own peril of course, it may be the free person would take offense, then again, perhaps they would not, DEPENDENT on what the slave was doing at that particular moment - an example might be perhaps a slave is cooking, stiring a bubbling pot of stew, to stop that task, might well end up with stew ruined, so she risks getting beaten for not kneeling, or beaten for ruining dinner ~  yeah sometimes it sucks to be a slave, damned if you do, damned if you don't!)

I suspect, if there is a meter of snow on the ground that kneeling outside would not generally be advisable, just as I imagine in the heat of the desert, outside and not in the shade, kneeling on the sands could well cause a slave damage.  Again it is situational, big picture stuff!

Saying bond maids don't kneel, is rediculous also, of course they did!  They are slaves, chattle, property and if a free person says "kneel" they better hit their knees or face the consequences.   Also Bonds didn't tend serve from their knees like a southern "silkie" they are more inclined to crawl into a man's lap and serve from there.   ICly Ala is still trying to work out how to serve at "high tables"...if she kneels her nose doesn't even reach the top of the table, and if she stands, she risks being considered rude!   

What I don't get, and never will I guess, is why the players of a slave, when commanded to kneel, have to go OOC to argue, or worse, risk more punishment and argue IC.  If a free person, comands a slave to kneel,  whether she be a bond, a silkie, a tuchuk, a paga slut, a coin slut, a high slave or the love slave of the Ubar...shouldn't she just obey?

Everything you said is spot on, in my opinion.  There are times when common sense is called for BUT if a Free commands a bond/slave to kneel?  Guess what?  They better hit the deck.  Additionally, it is always a good idea to just smile and do as told rather than risking the wrath of a beating.  Or worse.   Like you said, she should just obey.

[Delaynie Barbosa]

I said it before and I'll say it again...

Dear Bonds,

You are bondmaids, not bondgirls.  Please behave and do what the free tell you.

Love,

A former bond who really just likes being a kajira better

[Alaria Voss]

You are bondmaids, not bondgirls.  Please behave and do what the free tell you.

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE this 

[Babybear Serenity]

I hate generalities, really, it kills RP and creates an atmosphere ripe for falsities to sprout up. Ever so subtle they creap in, please let us not forget the importance of context. A bondmaid had a totally different way of life, for the most part, then a city slave did. Then a pleasure slave did by far. (the certified kind, not just the ones used for pleasure either) But if you spend even 30 minutes reading Marauders you see slaves kneeling all over the place...
If you continue your journey through the books, you quickly notice something else, that slaves in the south DO get off their knees when serving too. When at a feast, like the bonds were in Marauders, they flitter about filling goblets from standing position, person to person, and they DO get thrown to the table and raped just as easily and quickly as any ripe bond. They do squirm in laps, and they do cajole and are playful and brazen. To say "silkies" aren't as brazen as their norther counterparts would be a mistake. There are glorious differences between the north and south, but we emphasize the ever so small insignificant stuff and wow... do we ever miss the big picture, and sadly, we only deprive ourselves and our roleplay.

When people ask me when should a slave kneel, the answer is very simple: She could be killed if she doesn't.
When people wonder if there was ever description of a slave killed for not kneeling, the answer is just as simple: No.
At least not that we are made aware of.
And there are hundreds countless references where slaves are directly in the presence of, speaking to, challenging, arguing, shouting at, or even simply discussing with free people all while standing.

Now, back to serving for a second

Do southern slaves always kneel to serve?
"silkie" serving on her feet:

"Serve him wine," said he, "or you will be stripped and thrown into a pen of male slaves."
The girl turned and withdrew, then approached again, climbing the stairs, delicately, as though timidly, head down. Then she leaned forward, bending her knees slightly, her body graceful, and spoke, her voice a whisper in my ear, an invitation, "Wine, Master?" as though offering not wine, but herself.(...)
"Yes," I said, "I will have wine."
She poured the diluted wine into my cup, bowed her head and with a shy smile, backed gracefully down the stairs behind me, then turned and hurried away.
Assassin of Gor   Book 5   Page 89

Are bondmaids always too busy to kneel?
Bondmaid just hanging out in the long hall kneeling:

I handed the horn to Thyri, who, in her collar, naked,
between two of the benches, knelt at my feet.
"Yes, Jarl," said she, and ran to fill it, from the great vat.
Marauders of Gor [Gor Series Book 9] Page 139

Oh and just for fun, I love how even the great Forkbeard, who feels Bera should be collared, gives her complete and total respect, as she is free, and far above that of a mere slave.

She lifted the hem of her kirtle of scarlet wool about the
ankles of her black shoes and turned away. She looked back,
briefly, once. She indicated the kneeling slaves. "Kirtle their
shame," she said. Then she strode away, followed by several
men-at-arms.
"Kirtle your shame!" cried the Forkbeard.
His girls, quickly, frightened, tears in their eyes, drew
about them as well as they could their kirtles. They covered,
as well as they could, their bodies, having been shamed by
the free woman. It is a common practice of free women, for
some reason, to attempt to make the female slave ashamed
of her body.
"Who was that?" I asked.
"Bera," said he, "the companion of Svein Blue Tooth."
My heart sank.
"He should put her in a collar," said the Forkbeard.

Marauders of Gor [Gor Series Book 9] Page 240

Luckily, she does end up in a collar, and she demonstrates how easy it is to kneel outside:

We saw Svein Blue Tooth, the tooth of the Hunjer
whale, stained blue, on its chain about his neck. He lifted his
hand. Near him, kneeling beside her master, behind the line
of his heels, was Bera, one of his girls.

Marauders of Gor [Gor Series Book 9] Page 444


So, even though I 100% agree with the absurdity of any slave stating "I don't kneel.. for xyz reason", and the frustration of the OP, I also believe wholehartedly that "just do it because you're told" isn't the answer either, from an OOC perspective.

There are FAR too many Free players who do not understand the richness and variety of their roles, they feel insecure about portraying their "dominance" and fall back on old standards to bolster their RP. Its a shame really, because its very transparent to me when I walk onto a scene with a free player and while I might be emoting something my first post, they've already decided and their very first words are going to be " /me barks "Kneel, slave!" " ......... I've already pegged you, and am now exiting stage left, if this is what your RP consists of. Feels way too lifestyle for me. (no offense to my lifestyle peeps, just not my thing atm)

And besides.. I really do have to give the floor over to the man who gave us Gor, and our raison d'etre for starting threads about kneeling and serving. Cause of course, John says it best   

One of the important things about the Gorean world, incidentally, is that its culture is natural, and familiar, to the Goreans, and it should be presented that way. It should be understood from the inside, not criticized from the outside. For example, a slave will commonly kneel in the presence of a free person, particularly if addressed. When a master enters a room his slaves will commonly kneel, or perform obeisance, etc.

This is not to be made a "big deal of." That would be a serious aesthetic and literary error. Such things are to be seen simply as a part of their world, not called out explicitly, not pointed out explicitly, not commented on explicitly, not editorialized about," either subtly or clumsily.

That these things are natural for them, that this is their way of doing things, is important. The whole business will have much more punch if these things, so different from our ways of doing and thinking about things, are simply presented, or shown, rather than emphasized, or in any way commented upon. Again, it is the psychological dimension which is most significant, most powerful, to which the Gorean world owes so much of its beauty, its attractiveness and its impact.

---John Norman, Letter to the Gorean Group, Sept 20th 2000
{Bold Italics, added by me}

[Delaynie Barbosa]

That is very well said Eela. Quotes and thoughts like that go a long way as far as education and understanding roles goes. Not to say that all bonds are quick to say, "I don't kneel," or that all kajira fall to their knees in the presence of free, but those certainly seem to be stereotypes. Where do you think it came from?

[Babybear Serenity]

Not to say that all bonds are quick to say, "I don't kneel," or that all kajira fall to their knees in the presence of free, but those certainly seem to be stereotypes. Where do you think it came from?

It's exactly like that in BDSM, well the part where slaves always kneel. And nothing against bdsm, I'm a big fan, but it has no place in Gor. It isn't the source John Norman drew from, and I'm not putting words into his mouth, he's been quoted as saying so much.

Why had some bonds developed a very different attitude about their role?

I believe its just because they were influenced by onlinisms. The same way we all have been victim to those black and white expectations delivered by people, instead of getting our own truths from reading the novels themselves. And, also, I think... and this might be a stretch, but if I was really pissed about the 10 steps serve, sitting looking pretty in the tavern hour after hour on my knees, and then someone told me "Ya know what, bonds do it differently!" well, I'd be running for Torvaldsland!! "Get me some real Gor PLEASE!" So, in my hypothesis, it's almost as though their differences are a type of protest, but sadly, one that shouldn't have had to be actioned. And it then also created a handful of "onlinisms" of its own. But of course, that's just my hypothesis.

[Violetta Daviau]

Very nice thread, and especially the post by Babybear Serenity / Eela!!

That is very well said Eela. Quotes and thoughts like that go a long way as far as education and understanding roles goes. Not to say that all bonds are quick to say, "I don't kneel," or that all kajira fall to their knees in the presence of free, but those certainly seem to be stereotypes. Where do you think it came from?

I think it comes from the collars in combination with the lazyness of people. Collars set your "standing animation" to what you chose one time and so your avi flops between walking to whatever pose you chose. Maybe HUDs would make sense that allow/enforce choice of animations, and walking ends it.
Else they surely took the various posts as reason that slaves kneel every here and there.

I like also JN's description, it shows that he means less BDSM and more a cultural based thing. In former earthen times even free and nobles knelt, curtsied or bowed their heads when the king/emperor entered - until released from such pose - and I think in some asian cultures even they knelt to him and brought their foreheads to the floor (maybe comparable to Gorean obedience pose?) They made such to honor the superior.

For Gor though one may not forget that the nadu pose, kneeling widelegged, given many slaves wear rather heat revealing garments, is a humiliation and shame for one that has yet the slightest sense of will for freedom, i.e. new slaves, free women having to see it.

[Aphris Myoo]

I think it comes from the collars in combination with the lazyness of people. Collars set your "standing animation" to what you chose one time and so your avi flops between walking to whatever pose you chose. Maybe HUDs would make sense that allow/enforce choice of animations, and walking ends it.
Else they surely took the various posts as reason that slaves kneel every here and there.

I don't like those waggling ducks either, actually i find them silly. But I am not sure its laziness, often its told them to do, over and over again. We have a slave girl, which is for sure not lazy, on the contrary. But she does it too. She has been told at schools to do, and at every half lifestyle master she had after that Now its so rammed in she can no longer do different.