FW in Gor: an inconsistent description?

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May 2012

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[Corinne Elan]

I wish to share with you some idea I have lately developed about FW in Gor.
Yes, I know, much has been told about it ... but .. well.. try and read.
I have noticed that women quote often the sentences where women seem to be allowed to slap men and insult them while men, on the contrary, quote those sentences where Norman says Gor is a men's world. So is this one of the well known inconsistencies of the books? In my opinion it is not.
Now go back to the 19th century or earlier. Men held all power, only few women had managed to attain power either by birth right or out of their special qualities (Queen Elizabeth 1st is the most striking instance). But generally women depended on men. This did not mean they had to be submissive, if you read Jane Austen's novels you see that women had their pride, a relative freedom, were educated, elegant and respected. They could even be bold and insulting at times but there was a huge difference from nowadays. And it is not so much in what they did but in the underlying culture. Men could allow women to behave like that because they did not live it as an attemp to overpower them, they were sure of their power and therefore they could even appreciate a lively and intelligent woman without any worry. Nowadays if a woman helds her point men feel it as an attempt to control and dominate them. Modern men are no so confident in their power as the men of the ancient times were instead. Gorean men are our old times men: they know they have the power, they do not feel any danger of loosing their power in letting women be bold and sometimes even rude. And gorean women are not trying to win power, that is rare in Gor, mostly women simply wonted to be respected and admired not to be equal to men. I know this is not easy for a modern woman, but if you try and see it this way, you will see no inconsistency in the books as to this and your RP will probably change slightly. I always remember my grandma, she was the real boss of the family but she never challenged her husband openly, In a way she always recognized he was the head of the family although in the end she always convinced him to do what she was suggesting. Or think of some movies like Pride&Prejudice  (The one with Colin Firth - BBC mini series), or Sense and Sensibility (Hugh Grant & Emma  Thompson), or the Hamlet by Branagh. Look at the women there ... how they behave then look at men, they respect their women, they protect them, they enjoy some fights with them but there is also this underlying common agreement that men have the power. I do not know if it is clear but i would like to hear your ideas about this, and of course, not only women's opinion but also men's.

[Bara Mayako]

Interesting sidenote: Jane Austen published Pride and Prejudice anonymously, because she didn't think the public would read a book written by a woman. And, indeed, when rumours circulated that the author was, indeed, a woman, many critics dismissed them as ridiculous, because the book was considered too cleverly written to have been a woman's work.

Oh, BTW, I agree with you.

[Poisonous Adored]

I wouldnt compare the FW of Gor with women in our Earth cultures.... Many women of high rank, in Earth, in the aristocracy (XVI, XVII and XVIII centuries for example), lived in debauchery and libertinism, took lovers, were disloyal to husbands who themselves took good time with their mistresses. As long as the appearances were safe... Power was a question of birth, not of sex.... A noble woman felt far superior to a man of lower rank... 

Too, the level of insolence of a FW towards men, depends a lot of her rank and caste.... Indeed, a man will be certainly more tolerant to a woman who has strong protections, who belongs to a high caste and who insults him, than with a poor woman of low caste....
But it doesnt mean that the man who chuckled when he has been insulted by a high born woman, wont plot secretly against her, as revenge.

Men respect free women in book, I would say that this respect and this tolerance is rather a compensation mixed with indifference... The sweetness, the docility, the pleasure, they get that from slaves. After all, men can leave to FW, the petty pleasure to be mean, arrogant, disrespectful to these poor frigid (officially supposed) and frustrated free women, forced to kill all passion, to control their womanhood for preserving their dignity.... They forget into the arms of their slaves, these little annoyances....

I would say, too, that in books, FW feel always far superior to many men. They respect their family authority, authority of men of lower rank, but in books, most of FW learn once collared, that men, whatever their caste, overpower them. In Gor, men let free women leaving in the illusion of their superiority.... Sometimes, they break this illusion....

In fact, in the relations of free men and free women, in Gor, nothing is all white, nothing is all black....

[Corinne Elan]

Sure, what you say is very true, but i was concentrating on the culture, the foundations on which everything is based. I mean, the suffrage movement in the late 19es brought about a cultural revolution of which we are not aware.
Before that time wonen had power, some of them were licentious, all you pictured in your reply ... BUT they knew inside of them that they had their power only as long as men allowed them to. Women were NOT on an equality basis with men, not even the richest women, were because they were not allowed to take part in the social and political life. If they had power it was an exeption. the other ones, the wives or daughters of rich and powerful men had power only as a reflex of their men's power. As you say, Jane Austen was well aware of this and although she probably did not like it, she accepted it as part of a woman's life. This is what makes us, modern women completely different from our ancestors and from gorean women. We know we have equal rights and that we do not depend on men to be what we w ant to be. We know we have the right to assert ourselves, to be in control of our lives. We can choose not to, we can prefer to be more "submissive" but it is a personal choice not a choice imposed by the cultural envirnment. And this in my opinion makes a huge difference. Not only for us but also for men. Try and think how self confident a man could feel when he knew that after all power and control was his, that a woman could be rich and powerful but in the end was "only a woman". Our men look for this when they say they like Gor, the woman of pre-feminism. And we are not able to role-play that. Try to stop and look at our RP from a detached point of view. You can feel the confidence of a woman who knows she has her rights and owns nothing to men, i have never seen a woman held back when a man becomes menacing, quite the opposite, even pageant and low classes women become even more bold and arrogant. Don't you think this is what spoils Gor for our men who are dreaming of a worl of men and find once again the challenging modern women hiding behind the clothes of a Gorean FW? I know it is not easy, but we should honestly try and be in the shoes of a pre-feminism woman.

[Daved Calderwood]

Everytime I have thought of Free Women i am reminded of another book I read a couple of years back about Japanese culture and one chapter of it dealt with the women.

It seems there was some big meeting in Japan a couple of years back with western women and the Japanese women about something or another (I think it was some marketing exchange or something similar to that). Anyway the women were encouraged to exchange ideas and opinions concerning their personal lives and the western women first remarked on the meekness of the Japanese women saying that it only would make the man feel like he was the more dominate of the two. The Japanese could not understand why the western women felt they were victimized by men.

They explained that in Japan the wife is the one with really the power of the household. She decides what clothes her family is going to wear. She is the accountant of the family and handles all the bills. The husband has to work and when it's payday he hands the check over t the wife and the wife allots an allowance for him. She plans the vacations and the parties and any other family event. If it is a rich Japanese family she directs the housekeeping staff.

Those are just a few things I could recall from the book but the gist was that the Japanese women, even though they appear to be humble and meek, have there own kind of power in the home. The husband can go outside and party with his buddies but you can best believe he saved for that night out from his allowance. She will make his meals and serve it to him but it's only because the poor bastard is working a ten plus hour day shift to get that food on the table. When you think about it the guy is the one that's the real slave over there and the woman reaps all the benefits of it.

Of course this might not be the case today where more and more couples are both part of the workforce but it does remind me of some aspects of the FW in Gor and how it seems they are really the ones with all the power or at least a strong influence on a man with power. 

[Bara Mayako]

They explained that in Japan the wife is the one with really the power of the household. She decides what clothes her family is going to wear. She is the accountant of the family and handles all the bills. The husband has to work and when it's payday he hands the check over t the wife and the wife allots an allowance for him. She plans the vacations and the parties and any other family event. If it is a rich Japanese family she directs the housekeeping staff.

My father likes to say that they have a similar division of responsibilities.  My mother gets to decide about the new washing machine, or which refrigerator to buy, or who to invite to the parties, and my father gets to make all the important decisions, like how to solve the Euro crisis, what to do about global warming, and those sort of things.   

And, actually, I don't think you have to go back to Jane Austen's day to see that kind of thing.  The generation of women, our mothers and grandmothers who grew up before Betty Friedan's The Feminine Mystique appeared in 1963 would have known exactly how to play a Free Woman.  After all, Norman's works are, by many, considered to be a reaction to the revolution in women's rights that arose in the '60's.  Perhaps it was just a bit of nostalgia for the way things used to be....

[Corinne Elan]

Yes Bara, I agree absolutely!! 

[Poisonous Adored]

"There is a difference' laughed Hassan, 'between the pride of a free woman and the pride of the slave girl. The pride of a free woman is the pride of a woman who feels herself to be the equal of a man. The pride of the slave girl is the pride of the girl who knows that no other woman is the equal of herself."
pg 332-333 Tribesmen of GOR

Free women, at least the ones of high caste, feel to be the equal of men and obviously, very probably superior to men of lower rank and caste. It doesnt mean that they are really equal to men. It's a feeling. Women know for example, that they are weaker than them, that they are vulnerable, that they dont have the same strength. Even, they respect the authority of the members of their families, guardians or men of high rank. But,They feel equal of men in importance and men, in their compliance toward them, grant them this illusion.

But it's an illusion they lose when they are enslaved or when a man discipline them.

[Husam Darkfire]

Free women, at least the ones of high caste, feel to be the equal of men and obviously, very probably superior to men of lower rank and caste. It doesnt mean that they are really equal to men. It's a feeling. Women know for example, that they are weaker than them, that they are vulnerable, that they dont have the same strength. Even, they respect the authority of the members of their families, guardians or men of high rank. But,They feel equal of men in importance and men, in their compliance toward them, grant them this illusion.

But it's an illusion they lose when they are enslaved or when a man discipline them.

I'll not attempt to speak for any FM other than myself, but my character is just a bit more tolerant of the actions of a FW than those of a slave. But make no mistake, his patience is very short for any FW that dares cross that very fine line.

As for respecting a FW? That has to be earned. The status of being allowed to remain free does not in anyway automatically get you any respect from me.

[Poisonous Adored]

Free women, at least the ones of high caste, feel to be the equal of men and obviously, very probably superior to men of lower rank and caste. It doesnt mean that they are really equal to men. It's a feeling. Women know for example, that they are weaker than them, that they are vulnerable, that they dont have the same strength. Even, they respect the authority of the members of their families, guardians or men of high rank. But,They feel equal of men in importance and men, in their compliance toward them, grant them this illusion.

But it's an illusion they lose when they are enslaved or when a man discipline them.

I'll not attempt to speak for any FM other than myself, but my character is just a bit more tolerant of the actions of a FW than those of a slave. But make no mistake, his patience is very short for any FW that dares cross that very fine line.

As for respecting a FW? That has to be earned. The status of being allowed to remain free does not in anyway automatically get you any respect from me.

I would say that the notion of respect is something that must be earned, yes. Respect is a feeling, deference is a behavior. In books, free women are granted deference and courtesy by men and we have many examples of that men are able to show as tolerance, some of them, even, reply to the worst FW's sneaky comments by humor and derision (which makes them furious) even when they will plot against the FW who insulted them, secretly. The short patience of SL-Gorean men is one of my pet peeves, I confess...

[Drakena Amaterasu]

I have had the luck to meet many respectiful men in Gor, but also happened to stamble upon some men who are rude to FW and talk to them as if they were slaves even when they are respectful and polite. Some simply will ignore what FW say, and I have seen also those who interact only with the slaves and other men.
This is kind of behavoir that gets me puzzled... I don't know if I am making myself clear, but what I am trying o say is that in SL gor some men won't even give the chance to be approached by a FW and have some good rp. It feels like they take the "it's a man's world" quote so seriously they won't allow themselves to think women can be free, and that free women can be also very fun to roleplay with.
Back when I rp'ed Medieval/fantasy RP paralel to Gor,right when I started rp'ing and my profile was still of a RP warrioress, I had a guy IM me saying exactly this: "If you are a warrioress on earth than in gor you are slave come to my boot" (And yes,without the punctuation).
It IS a man's world, but that doesn't mean FW are unnatural and have to be ignored.

[Husam Darkfire]

I have had the luck to meet many respectiful men in Gor, but also happened to stamble upon some men who are rude to FW and talk to them as if they were slaves even when they are respectful and polite. Some simply will ignore what FW say, and I have seen also those who interact only with the slaves and other men.

My FC makes the same comment to me all the time. Regardless of what gender you are or what role you're playing, I'd wager EVERYONE is in there for pretty much the same reason. Decent interaction. Otherwise why waste time logging on, creating a character, and cultivating a past storyline?

Some of the most engaging, and trying RP I've had was with some smart mouthed FW that wants to see just how far she can press me until I threaten to remove her tongue. She's a FW and entitled to openly express herself - to a point 

But in my most humble opinion, that's the kind of of ongoing RP that helps to fill in the small details and give SL Gor some life and gives a sim true meaningful character.

Bring your sim to life and make everyone a part of the story. Because if you don't some other sim will.

[Drakena Amaterasu]

My FC makes the same comment to me all the time. Regardless of what gender you are or what role you're playing, I'd wager EVERYONE is in there for pretty much the same reason. Decent interaction. Otherwise why waste time logging on, creating a character, and cultivating a past storyline?

This is my point exactly. Then why can't some let themselves go abit out of the Man/slave/fellow man interaction?
I always try to engage, but not always I am successful.

[Kail Lefevre]

In role play I have seen where people who don't know any better react to free women in a manner that is in my opinion not correct towards the books. A friend of mine was arrested and enslaved for slapping a free man who insulted her. I was pretty sure this was not right at the time and since then I have seen where in book 5 assassins of Gor two different free women slapped the same warrior out in the open of the high bridges of Ko-ro-ba. They did so in front of a crowd of people and the warrior in question said nothing to the assault. Indeed by the time he was slapped the second time he looked pretty dumbfounded. The simple truth is, free women do have rights. If they are justified in their actions, it is best to have witnesses, they can strike men with out fear of legal woes. I often say things in front of free women that should get me slapped, just to see who has the balls to do it.

The same scene that I just spoke about has Elizabeth standing on the high bridge in the same tuchuck leathers she was wearing when they left the wagons at the end of book 4. For those that recall, she was still a slave at the end of book 4. During the scene she is slapped by a slave for being in her way. She slaps the slave back and identifies her self as a free woman. The slave then notes the absence of a collar and proceeded to beg for her life. She had after all just assaulted a free. A free woman standing on the bridge gets into the debate and tells Lizzy girl that she should be assumed for being dressed as she is and in a few minutes Lizzy girl has the other free woman stripped down to her underclothing. It was bare enough that the slave girl and Liz and the warrior there ( earning him self the second slap) all agreed that the woman would fetch a good price if she were ever sold on the block. Then the slave, Lizzy girl still in slave leathers, and a half naked free woman went skipping off down the street with Tarls coins to go drinking. So when I see people in SL gor going up to a free woman and start suggesting collars for a little cleavage showing I tend to think poorly of their ability to reason out what they them selves read. You can't arrest a woman just for how she is dressed!

Now the OP question as I read it, was how can this all be true, and how can we then call Gor a mans world with out contradictions. The answer is simple. Because men allow it. It is our world and we choose to allow women these rights. Remember that in Ar high caste free women are not so free at all. In fact the men keep them in prison. Granted, the high caste free women spend all day in the most beautiful gardens, served by slaves and have all their needs seen to, but in the end the high walled gardens are little more then large pretty bird cages that they can only escape by some man paying their father's set bride price. Also remember that a free woman that dresses too openly, while can't be arrested out right for it can be enslaved for other things, and a woman that shows to much and attracts the eye of a man with lusts will soon find that out. A pretty low caste girl that shows too much will soon find her father ashamed of how she dresses and will either see that her choices are changed or that she is sold to a slave. As her father she has that right. She might instead discover that she got the attention of a man and that she is now companioned to some one that decided that she looked too good to ignore. After that he can see to it she dresses correctly. After that when they get home he can treat her like the slave he thought she wanted to be. Or worse the raider might see a woman with so much flesh hanging out that he sees it as a " Take me". You might even find a warrior that decides that maybe she should be in a collar. So he looks for a way to set her up. Makes plans with some one to put her in a way that she finds her self collared in one of the other many ways that can be done legally.

No bones about it. A woman has to cover up for sure. Men are out there and lurking. You never know when they might strike and in what form. It is our world and if the women give us enough reason then by hook or by crook you will suffer the steel of slavery. So to the OP. Is it a contradiction to say it is a mans world and then allow these other things? No.  Men are well aware that they have the power. In the end we are only giving you enough rope to hang your self.