"You cannot punish me!" she cried. "You are not my masters!"

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May 2012

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[Aphris Myoo]

No free may touch or punish them without My explicit permission

I read several profiles today, and saw regular such like statements.

I also heard a girl this weekend who left a BtB city because she was punished by another then her master. she stated her few point with the quote:

"You cannot punish me!" she cried. "You are not my masters!"

I silenced her with the whole quote

"You cannot punish me!" she cried. "You are not my
masters!"
"Any free person can punish an errant slave girl," I said.
"Surely you do not think that her behavior fails to be subject
to supervision and correction as soon as she is out of her
master's sight?"

[Mordachai Draegonne]

Goes to show that one needs to take a look at the entire context instead of relying on just the quotes. Ive seen similar things happen when people used the quotes about the slaveboy named fish to rationalize calling every male slave a boy. If you look at the actual quotes in the book it is written that fish is in fact underage, therefor he is in fact a boy. Yet the quote gets used to call every male slave a boy, while child avatars are strictly forbidden in most every sim.

[Yaynenali Resident]

Goes to show that one needs to take a look at the entire context instead of relying on just the quotes. Ive seen similar things happen when people used the quotes about the slaveboy named fish to rationalize calling every male slave a boy. If you look at the actual quotes in the book it is written that fish is in fact underage, therefor he is in fact a boy. Yet the quote gets used to call every male slave a boy, while child avatars are strictly forbidden in most every sim.

How is that different from calling a female slave "girl"?

[Husam Darkfire]

I whole heartedly agree with reading and using the quote as it was written and intended rather than pulling out select parts to fit your individual needs.

As for the difference between calling a male slave "boy" and a female slave "girl" to me there is none. But I'm going to call them whatever I choose to call them. Boy, girl, slut, beast, etc..

[Poisonous Adored]

"boy" and "girl" for addressing slaves are the two biggest onlinisms of Gor. And calling a tall and muscled kajirus, "boy", is so ridiculous that I even dont understand why people using that do not realize how they ridicule themselves....

Girl and boy are used in books for both frees and slaves, where Norman describes young people. Never in books there is a quote when a someone address a kajirus in calling him "Boy". "Come here Boy"... Ridiculous. And Im pretty sure that it's the same for "girl".

Personally, I address kajiri by "Kajirus" "Kajira" "Kajirae" or "slave"

And it's not because you play a free that you can use onlinisms.

Regarding the OP, yes, too many RPers are unable to get rid of their Earthling or bdsm mentality.... They forget that even when a man uses a slave without her owner's permission, this one, before to sort out with the thief, expects first that his slave gave satisfaction and served well. Else.....

I do not play with slaves who have such OOC stupid and ungorean restrictions, nor with their master.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

@OP
I'm not sure why that would appear in a profile or ever be offered in RP. 

“The discipline of a slave,” I said, “may be attended to by any free person, otherwise she might do much what she wished, provided only her master did not learn of it.” The legal principle was clear, and had been upheld in several courts, in several cities, including Ar.
...
“But, of course, I do not own you.”
“No, Master,” she said.
“But as you know, an errant slave may be disciplined by any free man.”
“Yes, Master,” she said.
“For example, her master might not be present.”
(Magicians of Gor)

"boy" and "girl" for addressing slaves are the two biggest onlinisms of Gor. And calling a tall and muscled kajirus, "boy", is so ridiculous that I even dont understand why people using that do not realize how they ridicule themselves....

Girl and boy are used in books for both frees and slaves, where Norman describes young people. Never in books there is a quote when a someone address a kajirus in calling him "Boy". "Come here Boy"... Ridiculous. And Im pretty sure that it's the same for "girl".

According to the books this is clearly not an onlinism so I'm puzzled.  In the books kajira are described as girls in every book irrespective of age and they are also addressed directly as "girl".  Likely the only reason you do not see similar for male slaves with the same frequency is the shortage of references to those type of slaves overall in the books that are born male slaves or trained male silk slaves.  If you would call a full grown women who serves you a girl then likely the same would be true of a man who serves you.  Even Talena was referred to as a girl.  If I don't know a slaves name then they are girl, boy or slave until I learn their name.  It is one more way indicated by the author to signify a slaves status.

“Girl?” said Calliodorus.
For a moment it seemed Claudia was not certain that she had been addressed. Was she not a woman? Then she realized that she was no longer entitled to that epithet, so dignified, so formal and exalted an appellation. With her embondment she had become a girl, a girl, with all the humiliating reduction in status so signified, but, too, now, she was subject as well to all the suggestions of extreme vulnerability, and of nubility, readiness, beauty, freshness, and sexual desirability, which that term connoted. (Renegades of Gor)

As kajira is the most common expression in Gorean for a slave who is female, I suppose it might, in English, be most simply, and most accurately translated, as “slave girl.” In a collar, you see, understandably, all women are “girls.” (Witness of Gor)

The expression 'girl' in such contexts is rich and delicious. It has a lovely reductive or demeaning sense in which it discriminates between the slave and the free woman, and calls attention to the lowliness, the unimportance and the meaninglessness of the slave. Indeed, free mistresses will invariably refer to, and address, their serving slaves, and such, even those of their own age, as "girl." Secondly, the expression 'girl', at least in the usage of men, has not only the aforementioned connotation but, even more powerfully, and independently of the age of the female, the commendatory suggestion of extreme sexual desirability. (Prize of Gor)

“Are you angry with me, Jason?” she asked.
“No, Mistress,” I said.
“Sometime,” she said, “perhaps, if you are a very good boy, I may let you take me again in your arms.” (Fighting Slave of Gor)

Slave girls may be forced to beg, and perform, and well, for their food. Slave girls may be used as men please. It is what they are for. (Kur of Gor)

I remembered, too, the girls in the last tavern, if it was a tavern, lascivious in their dancing silks, pleasure slaves bred like animals for passion. (Tarnsman of Gor)

“Girl,” I said to her.
She, addressed, scrambled to her knees. She kept her
head down. She whimpered.
“She does not speak,” said Boabissia. (Mercenaries of Gor)

“Raise your head,” said he, “girl.”
I lifted my head, and looked into his eyes, fearfully. It is sometimes hard to do that with one’s master. There were tears in my eyes. (Dancer of Gor)

"Girl," said Cabot to the dancer, "return to your cage, or kennel."
She leapt up, gratefully, cast another look at Peisistratus, and hurried from the room, departing through the beaded curtain. (Kur of Gor)

"Girl!" snapped the Lady Bina.
The slave looked at her, wildly, frightened.
"'Mistress'," coached Cabot.
"Mistress!" said the slave.
"You are worthless," said the Lady Bina. "You are no more than an animal, a branded animal." (Kur of Gor)

[Yaynenali Resident]

Excellent quotes Kaitlin. Thank you.

My question was really directed at the statement of how absurd it is to call a male slave "boy" on sims that don't allow child avatars. It would be no less absurd then calling a female slave "girl" and yet, that's acceptable.

I would imagine that calling a male slave "boy" would be more of a humiliation tactic or a way of saying he's less of a man than a Free Man would be. That seems like acceptable roleplay to me.

My apologies for pulling the thread off topic.

[Husam Darkfire]

Excellent quotes Kaitlin. Thank you.

My question was really directed at the statement of how absurd it is to call a male slave "boy" on sims that don't allow child avatars. It would be no less absurd then calling a female slave "girl" and yet, that's acceptable.

I would imagine that calling a male slave "boy" would be more of a humiliation tactic or a way of saying he's less of a man than a Free Man would be. That seems like acceptable roleplay to me.

My apologies for pulling the thread off topic.

Perhaps we’re mixing SL age restrictions with reality I fear. If this were a fully open simulated gorean environment then there would be children running about the cities, villages, ports, and camps. But the Linden Gods are trying to comply with the laws to protect children from seeing pixel sex or reading language they'd hear in most any R rated movie. They are also trying to avoid feeding the pedophiles desire to have their personally created adult toon parade around naked in from of toons that have the appearance of being a child.

But use of the term "boy” may very well be more of a term of degradation if coming from a male or perhaps a term of endearment if coming from a female.

So I guess to answer your original question about the absurdity? I personally don't consider it absurd at all.

But what do I know as it seems some feel its an "onlineism" for a free man to do or say what his wants.

[Yaynenali Resident]

I don't think it's absurd at all. I was responding to the quote below that suggested it is absurd to call a male slave "boy" on sims that don't allow child avatars. I was pointing out the irony that female slaves are called "girl" and that, by omission, seems to be okay with the post author.

Goes to show that one needs to take a look at the entire context instead of relying on just the quotes. Ive seen similar things happen when people used the quotes about the slaveboy named fish to rationalize calling every male slave a boy. If you look at the actual quotes in the book it is written that fish is in fact underage, therefor he is in fact a boy. Yet the quote gets used to call every male slave a boy, while child avatars are strictly forbidden in most every sim.

How is that different from calling a female slave "girl"?

[Kaitlin Eiren]

Goes to show that one needs to take a look at the entire context instead of relying on just the quotes. Ive seen similar things happen when people used the quotes about the slaveboy named fish to rationalize calling every male slave a boy. If you look at the actual quotes in the book it is written that fish is in fact underage, therefor he is in fact a boy. Yet the quote gets used to call every male slave a boy, while child avatars are strictly forbidden in most every sim.

I don't believe that is the justification.  Jason in Fighting Slave of Gor certainly wasn't underage.  As I noted in the post to Sasi...use of girl/boy is yet another way to reinforce on a person they were a slave in Gor.

Excellent quotes Kaitlin. Thank you.

My question was really directed at the statement of how absurd it is to call a male slave "boy" on sims that don't allow child avatars. It would be no less absurd then calling a female slave "girl" and yet, that's acceptable.

I would imagine that calling a male slave "boy" would be more of a humiliation tactic or a way of saying he's less of a man than a Free Man would be. That seems like acceptable roleplay to me.

My apologies for pulling the thread off topic.

YW and I suppose I should apologize for following. 

[Poisonous Adored]

So Kailtlin, ok for "girl"

Now, find me a quote where a slave male is called "boy". When someone address a kajirus, calling him boy. "kneel Boy".

We got already this debate in Gorums and no one has been able to find such quote. "If you are a very good boy" is still not the answer.

Calling every slave male "boy", is pretty ridiculous. And no, it's not because you call a kajira "girl" that you can call a kajirus "boy". There is certainly a purpose that Norman had in mind, when he used "Girl" for kajirae, mixing of the lower status (that we have already in our RL societies, so decried by feminists) with the sexual suggestion attached to this word. And apparently, he didnt give any example for male slaves addressed by "boy" even in the Jason series.

In the books, we have also many references of young free women and free men designed as "girl" and "boys" and we have too, "panther girls". Girl used for a slave is a way to enforce also in her mind that she cannot be called a "lady". It's also an old Earthling, European (and retrograde) mentality when a woman reaches the respectable status of married woman.

PS: I didnt read the books in English (in English, only quotes), in my first language, the translation of "girl" would sound ridiculous in the context where a slave is addressed like that.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

So Kailtlin, ok for "girl"

Now, find me a quote where a slave male is called "boy". When someone address a kajirus, calling him boy. "kneel Boy".

We got already this debate in Gorums and no one has been able to find such quote. "If you are a very good boy" is still not the answer.

Calling every slave male "boy", is pretty ridiculous. And no, it's not because you call a kajira "girl" that you can call a kajirus "boy". There is certainly a purpose that Norman had in mind, when he used "Girl" for kajirae, mixing of the lower status (that we have already in our RL societies, so decried by feminists) with the sexual suggestion attached to this word. And apparently, he didnt give any example for male slaves addressed by "boy" even in the Jason series.

In the books, we have also many references of young free women and free men designed as "girl" and "boys" and we have too, "panther girls". Girl used for a slave is a way to enforce also in her mind that she cannot be called a "lady". It's also an old Earthling, European (and retrograde) mentality when a woman reaches the respectable status of married woman. 

The rationale for male slave is the same and rather than accept your new position I'll take the author at his word.  If she calls Jason a "very good boy" I'm not sure what isn't clear about that.  Unlike the countless female slave characters named in the books the number of named primary characters that are male slaves is a whopping two if we exclude Tarl. 

The rationale provided by the author applies to male slaves as well as female slaves.  I use it as a term of degradation.  They are now officially lowered in status and I can't imagine saying "come here man" or them being imagined to be a "man" particularly when compared to gorean free men.

“’Do you think we should have our mad, rash boy, Milo, burned alive?’ she asked. (Magicians of Gor)   

PS: I didnt read the books in English (in English, only quotes), in my first language, the translation of "girl" would sound ridiculous in the context where a slave is addressed like that.

I also find this excuse a bit ridiculous after such a strong statement that "girl" was an onlinism.  Just say you got it wrong just as you are wrong regarding "boy" or choose to continue to believe both are onlinisms based on some rationale of your own making rather than anything found in the books.  I'll stick to the books in English. 

ETA: An additional quote that shows the change in status of two men once enslaved.

“They are the Hobarts,” I said, “and the men from the Bar Ina.”
...
Below us, half concealed in the tall grass, on their backs, lay the two fellows I recognized as the brothers, Max and Kyle Hobart. They were stripped and their hands were thonged behind their backs. They could not rise to their feet. Each wore a crude, single-position, greenwood leg-spreader.
“It is a present to me, from my friends, the Dust Legs,” laughed Grunt, “the leaders of those who followed us.”
“A thoughtful present,” I said. “Now they are yours.”
...
Ginger and Evelyn were lovely prizes and the Hobarts would doubtless prove useful in heavy work and, as boys, minding the kaiila herds. (Savages of Gor)

[Yaynenali Resident]

Calling every slave male "boy", is pretty ridiculous. And no, it's not because you call a kajira "girl" that you can call a kajirus "boy". There is certainly a purpose that Norman had in mind, when he used "Girl" for kajirae, mixing of the lower status (that we have already in our RL societies, so decried by feminists) with the sexual suggestion attached to this word. And apparently, he didnt give any example for male slaves addressed by "boy" even in the Jason series.

If I'm reading this right, you're saying that it's ridiculous to call a male slave a boy if they're not literally young boys, because Norman didn't write much about male slaves and only used the term "boy" sparingly. But it's okay to call a female slave, that is not a young girl, "girl" because Norman thinks that's sexy? Ew! If this is right I'll most certainly never call a slave "girl" again.

[Tertionus]

Men are referred to as the diminutive "boy" as a descriptor, but never as direct address. I had always imagined that this was Norman's way of showing us Gorean people simultaneously acknowledging slavery (slave below free) and natural order (female below male).

It could be that Norman did not once, in any single book, use "Boy" in direct address of a male slave purely as an oversight. But given that it -is- used in narrative about male slaves by Goreans in the books, I wouldn't have thought so. It seems more deliberate than that.

Given that one of the thee pillars of Gor is natural order, it seems almost unbelievable to me that some people are still concerned with equality of the sexes within role play - be the characters slave or free. Perhaps it's just me, but it makes complete sense that a female slave would be referred to as 'girl' and a male slave not referred to as 'boy'. 'Boy' would be quite a leap, I would think, for your average Gorean mindset. 'Girl', not so much.

[Poisonous Adored]

I said, Kaitlin, that I was pretty sure, I didnt say it was an onlinism. There is a difference between affirming "It's an onlinism" that is a fact commonly admitted, and "Im pretty sure" that engages only the person who pronounces this word, as personal feeling.

And still, you didnt find any quote where someone addresses a male slave, calling him Boy. Do you understand that I mean? Find me an example when someone says to a kajirus "Come on, Boy" something like that. We got already this debate in the Gorean forums, and nobody has been able to find such quote.

Second, there is a difference between a kajira and a kajirus. Gorean men think that the slavery is the natural place for a woman. In slavery, she is free to be totally a woman, to express her womanhood. Kajirae are proud of their beauty, of their collar, proud to belong to strong men. And so, men see the necessity to remind her that she is first, and before all, a slave. The use of "girl" is a part of the vocabulary reminding to a kajira, what she is, what is her use.

Not such need for a kajirus. His status is not something natural for a man. In books, are enslaved the men who have been defeated in battle, who are guilty of some offense, and if you noticed, Tarl frees easily the kajirus he met, except the ones he considers weak, cowards, but as he states himself, the slavery is a normal condition for a woman. A kajirus is humiliated by his slave status when the kajira will love her collar, and will get pride of her slavery, and so, makes necessary to be reminded that she is a slave and no more a free and respectful woman.

Norman uses the word "boy" especially in the descriptions. A "boy" is also, a servant in the Earthling culture. Using such word in the narration helps the reader to understand perfectly the loss of status between a free man and a male slave. "rash boy" is used as you would say "bad boy", for some hoodlum.

So Yaenenali, you can call a slave "Girl" especially when you want to degrade her, as women call a slave,  slut, too (more sexually expressive, difficult...). A slave doesnt have the same perception of the word "girl", where it is pronounced by a man, than, when pronounced by a free woman.... But calling a male slave "boy" is useless and I do believe that if Norman saw a purpose to the use of such name when addressing a kajirus, he would have used it.
It's why, I do not understand why this "word" is so commonly used in SL Gor. Mordachai is certainly right when he said that this quote about Fish, the young boy, enslaved by Tarl, is the reason.

After, Kaitlin and I, we have two different interpretations and perceptions. Feel free to make your

Oh, Tertionus posted as I was posting this post! Yes, that he wrote!