"You cannot punish me!" she cried. "You are not my masters!"

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May 2012

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[Tertionus]

Of the many times that we are told that slaves must submit to, and may be punished by, any free person, we are often told so through narrative rather than dialogue, and since Norman has given no indication of purposely using unreliable narrators, we can presume that they are telling the truth, and that, indeed, as a rule on Gor any slave may be punished by any free person, for any reason.

A first-person narrator is different than than the omnipotent, all-knowing third person narrator, and a good author purposely chooses for the first-person narrator for a reason -- not to be all-knowing but to deliberately show the world through the eyes of a person as they see it.  Good examples in English of how that is done, is Scout in To Kill A Mockingbird, where the narrator can describe how she saw things as a child while at the same time looking back from adulthood, and The Sound and Fury, by Willliam Faulkner, where the story is re-told 4 times by 3 different characters and an omniscient 3rd person narrator, with one of the narrators being mentally deficient.  We therefore cannot presume that they are telling the truth, we can only presume that they are telling what they believe to be the truth, as they perceive it.  Plato adequately described this phenomenon in the Allegory of the Cave.  Norman, as a philosophy professor, would undoubtedly be aware of this, as it is perhaps the most commonly taught philosophical point, already in secondary schools.  He presents us a world viewed through the eyes of believers, and believers shape reality to see it according to their point of view.  And perhaps it is up to us, the reader, to question that reality.  That is, after all, what philosophers ask us to do.

I have added emphasis to a portion of text that you quoted from me. I worded it as I did specifically because the points you raise are valid... but since we are told OFTEN that slaves may be punished by any free person by several different narrators in several different areas of the fictional planet where the books are set, not to mention occasionally shown slaves being punished by people other than their owners, we certainly can presume that they are telling the truth, and we can further presume that this is 'truth' across known Gor.

I don't really give a fig about questioning the 'reality' presented by the narrators in this series when my only interest in it is as a basis for role play. As philosophy I consider it to be a nonsense. But I am not looking for a philosophy - I am discussing role play on a forum made for such.

Incidentally, Scout is not looking back from adulthood. The narration is a child's, and it is specifically because of this fact that Scout is widely considered to be a very reliable narrator in the field of literary criticism.

For future reference, if the narrator is omnipotent, all-knowing and third person then the term 'unreliable narrator' is almost always moot in discussion of such narration, since omnipotent, all-knowing narration is, by default and definition, reliable.

[Bara Mayako]

Of the many times that we are told that slaves must submit to, and may be punished by, any free person, we are often told so through narrative rather than dialogue, and since Norman has given no indication of purposely using unreliable narrators, we can presume that they are telling the truth, and that, indeed, as a rule on Gor any slave may be punished by any free person, for any reason.

A first-person narrator is different than than the omnipotent, all-knowing third person narrator, and a good author purposely chooses for the first-person narrator for a reason -- not to be all-knowing but to deliberately show the world through the eyes of a person as they see it.  Good examples in English of how that is done, is Scout in To Kill A Mockingbird, where the narrator can describe how she saw things as a child while at the same time looking back from adulthood, and The Sound and Fury, by Willliam Faulkner, where the story is re-told 4 times by 3 different characters and an omniscient 3rd person narrator, with one of the narrators being mentally deficient.  We therefore cannot presume that they are telling the truth, we can only presume that they are telling what they believe to be the truth, as they perceive it.  Plato adequately described this phenomenon in the Allegory of the Cave.  Norman, as a philosophy professor, would undoubtedly be aware of this, as it is perhaps the most commonly taught philosophical point, already in secondary schools.  He presents us a world viewed through the eyes of believers, and believers shape reality to see it according to their point of view.  And perhaps it is up to us, the reader, to question that reality.  That is, after all, what philosophers ask us to do.

I have added emphasis to a portion of text that you quoted from me. I worded it as I did specifically because the points you raise are valid... but since we are told OFTEN that slaves may be punished by any free person by several different narrators in several different areas of the fictional planet where the books are set, not to mention occasionally shown slaves being punished by people other than their owners, we certainly can presume that they are telling the truth, and we can further presume that this is 'truth' across known Gor.

Actually, to my knowledge, although there are 30 different books, there only a handful of narrators.  The majority of the books are narrated by Tarl Cabot, Jason has a couple, and then there are a couple narrated by slaves. As far as the issue of punishing slaves go, I would concur that it is highly likely that any free might punish any slave, but I would stop short of stating anything is "fact" about Gor, since all we know of Gor is given to us through the eyes of the narrators, none of whom are an omniscient, 3rd-person, but usually the main character of the book telling his own story.

I don't really give a fig about questioning the 'reality' presented by the narrators in this series when my only interest in it is as a basis for role play. As philosophy I consider it to be a nonsense. But I am not looking for a philosophy - I am discussing role play on a forum made for such.

As I mentioned, I agree with you that slaves were probably punished by most free, but in all the discussions about what is BtB or not, when people try to make assumptions about what Norman intended, everyone assumes that what Tarl Cabot or Jason describe IS the "reality" of Gor, when it is only their perception of it. I object to you stating something is "fact" when it is told to us NOT by the omniscient 3rd person, but by a 1st person narrator. A good writer chooses his tools deliberately and with purpose, and a writer who is also a professor of philosophy and chooses for a first person narrator either does so with the intention of having the reader question the gulf between the "reality" and the narrator's perception of it, or is either a poor writer, poor philosopher, or both.

Incidentally, Scout is not looking back from adulthood. The narration is a child's, and it is specifically because of this fact that Scout is widely considered to be a very reliable narrator in the field of literary criticism.

Actually, you are wrong on that, as any literary critic worth anything can tell you.  The events that Scout describe took place when she was 7, but she is telling us the story in retrospect, from adulthood, as can be seen from the opening paragraphs of the book.  And that is why she is considered reliable, she has the advantage of hindsight and maturity:

When he was nearly thirteen, my brother Jem got his arm badly broken at the elbow. When it healed, and Jem’s fears of never being able to play football were assuaged, he was seldom self-conscious about his injury. His left arm was somewhat shorter than his right; when he stood or walked, the back of his hand was at right angles to his body, his thumb parallel to his thigh. He couldn’t have cared less, so long as he could pass and punt.

When enough years had gone by to enable us to look back on them, we sometimes discussed the events leading to his accident. I maintain that the Ewells started it all, but Jem, who was four years my senior, said it started long before that.

For future reference, if the narrator is omnipotent, all-knowing and third person then the term 'unreliable narrator' is almost always moot in discussion of such narration, since omnipotent, all-knowing narration is, by default and definition, reliable.

For future reference, the fact that a part of the story is told in the narration and not in the dialogue, doesn't mean that it is being told by a third person omniscient narrator. A first person narrator is called that exactly because he narrates.

Oh and for the record, so far, nine times out of ten, I've been in agreement with you on your postings.  And I don't disagree with your point about punishing slaves.  Just with you calling it fact, even within the context of the fantasy world of Gor.  As I continue reading, I come more and more to the conclusion that Norman wants us to question the accuracy of the narrator's perceptions and opinions.  A man of his intelligence and education can't possibly be serious about what he describes otherwise .....

[Anarch]

That and Tarl not actually being a reliable narrator either... at all, nor Jason. Not when it comes to describing the customs or cultures that existed in Gor at least, especially Tarl was somewhat of a fanatic that very often didn't have a clue about things and rather often showed how surprised he was at things being. At first at them being different than in his home-city Ko-ro-ba, and then later on about things being different than in the other cities he visited. If anything it just showed that gorean culture was very diverse and there really were no ASSURED PILLARS that counted for all the cultures and societies on Gor.

"By the Tarl" seems like a more correct label for some places...

[Tertionus]

Ugh. I would reply, but you two are far more invested than I, and I really don't have the enthusiasm nor inclination to bring the debate to a satisfactory end - particularly given that it is now about literature and writing, and I have started my Christmas break.

My opinion has been stated, it stands as is, there are errors in rebuttals that will remain uncorrected.

Enjoy the holidays, folks.

[Bara Mayako]

My opinion has been stated, it stands as is, there are errors in rebuttals that will remain uncorrected.

Must be my statements concerning Norman's intelligence....   

[thyri Carver]

I think this falls in line with those claiming  "Only my master can tell me to do chores"  or any of the other "I dont want to participate in this RP" cries that we hear.

Being punished
Chores
Being killed

Any of all of these things are part of the role you choose when you enter into Gor.  If you want to just RP the sex and the combat... the Village I hear is recruiting.

[Daved Calderwood]

Kajira tip #105 by Paulie , go to 1:46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgwJJ3pXvOw

LOL

[thyri Carver]

Whenever I hear that Daved.....  I cant help but go this way.  And sometimes it reminds me of some of the "dont punish me kajirae"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus

[Husam Darkfire]

Kajira tip #105 by Paulie , go to 1:46

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgwJJ3pXvOw

LOL

"ya gotta whack em once in a while to keep em in line

Great advice!

[ramond lax]

Whenever I hear that Daved.....  I cant help but go this way.  And sometimes it reminds me of some of the "dont punish me kajirae"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5im0Ssyyus

Funny i think the lines at about 1:20 when certain people go on about GE and BTB.


SHUUUUUUUUUN!!!