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Author Topic: Let's Do This...  (Read 3520 times)
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Babybear Serenity
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« 09. January 2012, 22:21:06 »
Nidhogr Fjord
Imperial Ar (opening soon)
Ko-ro-ba (Feorie rebuild- if she's still doing it  Wink )
Tarnwald (after their recent rules update)
Village of Dyval

...
Ok, that's just my little start. I have a goal, and I implore my fellow RP comrades to hear me out.

If anyone's set foot in GoT, this might sound familiar.

Preface:
When I first started to search for sims I'd consider even entering, not knowing a single person, I was horribly disappointed. I did make two or three attempts to go down the rabbit hole and see for myself if the rules really did reflect the RP I was going to find, and sadly I ended up returning to isolation. It was a fluke chance that one day I gave it another shot and ended up in Hartburg {Skip Dawes, Tatsuo Hyun, Cae Writer , Keri Vandeverre} . Awesome, clear rules, beautiful build, a core of players that RPd with you to "feel you out" on top of an application process that really made me think, and taught me a thing or two about my own character and about Gor in general. A detailed explanation of the locale and an arcing storyline that was in play when I arrived. In short, it quickly became my hallmark for how a sim should be managed, and how players should treat eachother.

Then after Hartburg, the search began anew. I never did find a replacement, and Vega and I went off to form House of Seginus. All by ourselves... because we didn't think there was anything out there worth the time.

We were wrong of course. At that time, I now know there were quite a few awesome sims around. And sadly I didn't get to play in any of them. But Search doesn't help one iota. And the BtB label is only a primary filter.. and even then, how many sims tend to drop that label because really it is a worthless marker of anything of significance? Except to distinguish ONE attribute: Femlaws or not.
 
Now, of course, there are the forums. Until we were looking for advertisement for House of Seginus, I hadn't even heard of the forums, and most of us know that the average Gorean RP'er isn't aware of them either. So.. when I TPd into my first GoT SIM, it felt like every other Gorean sim I had ever been to, except, this huge board that displayed what looked like a network of other SIMs. And so it turns out that if you favor the rules of -this- RP sim, the style, the values, the mission statement. Then here is a list of sims affiliated with this one. Different locales for the same overall theme. How, ingenious...

Plan:

Forget the drama (ok there will always be drama  Cheesy ) a little bit and lets smash our heads together and form an OOC alliance or network of Authentic Gorean Roleplay SIMs.
 
I see a big number of us arguing and debating this or that finer detail, but with a calmer head and a mission in mind I trolled the forums and previous debates and I noticed that most of us all want the same thing. Most of us all believe in the same "mission", and there are variances, sure.. but down to the core I think the following are universally agreed upon:

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1. SIM owners can have whatever rules they want, but those rules if they make their SIM public should be clearly written and readily available to any person entering the SIM. All players that then choose to stay have implicitly agreed to the rules.

2. Rules of Engagement should promote OOC equality. There should be a clear understanding that all players, regardless of roles are going to be treated/moderated exactly the same way.

3. The SIM should be faithful to the books. Characters are encouraged to fit the setting authentically. {ie: no warrior fighting wenches, no armed slave girls, Dress code is in place, etc..) 

4. SIM moderation promotes IC consequences for IC action, and does not give the initial impression of massive micromanaging of its players. It also promotes and helps to facilitate self moderation. (Encouraging players to speak to eachother if a disagreement about a scene occurs.)

5. In-character laws/code of conduct are not mixed in with the SIM rules of engagement. (ie: expected slave behaviours, FM or Caste duties rosters or OOC obligations, FW dress code violation consequences, if any) The SIM instead promotes player education about their role, can/may provide resources for enabling faithful depictions, but does not prevent or hinder plausible creative alterations to the norm.

---------------
 Points 2 & 3 & 5 are something that can generally be determined by reading the rules and asking a few questions. Number 4 might take a little longer, but the rules typically also make this point pretty clear in the outset.

I am not trying to search for perfect SIMs, I am not attempting to form an elitist clan.
The mission I have in mind is rather simple: If we can't rely on the label BtB, we need something else. The RP'ers looking for a new place to RP that were like me, need something else.

IF we really are a community, we don't all have to get along but can we at least form a network of like-visioned SIMs so that we start to get an idea of what's really out there. This of course is a better filter then search is, because it takes NO account of traffic. It takes no account of gossip-mongering. It leaves the final judgements up to the player. 

FURTHERMORE.. there are a handful of SIMs out there that I know, have outdated rules (not pointing fingers), but the owners would read my list of 5 and completely agree. Sadly however, the rules are what I see first. Perhaps this network formation will encourage current SIM owners who are like-minded to update their rules.

I didn't include anything about raiding etc.. because first and foremost, I care about if a SIM meets this MINIMUM standard. Meter, no meter, RP style long or short, raids and raid rules all aside.. THIS is, for me at least, a better filter then just BtB or not.

The initial list at the beginning of this post was just my quick list of SIMs I had recently been to or heard of, and that I have actually laid eyes on their rules. It isn't about hearsay, or gossip or "cliques" it's about grabbing their rules and examining them for the existence of these minimum standards.
 I am well aware that management styles can influence how rules are applied or not.
 I am well aware that sometimes you TP into a SIM and the owners and no moderators are present and you run into a total dick head that ruins your entire visit.. but lets leave more detailed analysis of SIMs for another thread.

The Plan:

I can't do this alone. I need your help.

1. Form an in-world group - open membership.
 
2. Create/use a forum area where anyone can "vouch" for a SIM and post their rules up for peer-examination. Voting is open to all for X period of time to be included in the network.

3. If a majority of the community agree, the SIM is asked to join the network.

4. Approved SIM's LM and Rules are added to a common board (I can design this and create the board) And SIM owners are asked to display the board at their landing zone. We could also display this board at more common SL Gorean gathering grounds.

5. On the forums we could have a sticky topic (or the like) where updated SIMs & SLurl's are maintained for reference.   

----------------------------------------------
I think its a small thing, won't take too much effort, and yet could help a great deal of people from feeling let down all the time. Search sucks, labels need definition and consistency to be helpful. What say you?

Like?  Grin    Dislike?  Angry

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Edited to remove Dashel's Folly at owners request.
« Last Edit: 10. January 2012, 19:47:27 by Babybear Serenity » Logged

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Violetta Daviau
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« 09. January 2012, 23:36:06 »
...
Forget the drama (ok there will always be drama  Cheesy ) a little bit and lets smash our heads together and form an OOC alliance or network of Authentic Gorean Roleplay SIMs.
 ...

Does that mean GE -> AGRoS -> BTB?
And who defines in the end what is authentic and what is not?
Does authentic mean book limited, spirit of the books (who defines that too?), by the culture or by culture and logic?
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Xaz Elephas
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« 10. January 2012, 01:20:36 »
Why don't we do this, log in game, grab some folks, gorean role-players and play. Actions over words. It's simple to do too. IE: The Ship role-play where each event we are 25 + Goreans visiting Ports on the Vosk.

There will always be debates and discussions on this forum. It is part of the reason they are here. These forums are a useful tool. Kuddo's to Laja for putting up with us all.

As for sims likes and dislikes, we all have our own personal taste. A sim I might think is the best thing to Gor sl since prim paga, others may hate. But I vote with my avatar by going and playing on that sim and...asking others to join me.
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Babybear Serenity
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« 10. January 2012, 02:41:19 »
Why don't we do this, log in game, grab some folks, gorean role-players and play. Actions over words. It's simple to do too. IE: The Ship role-play where each event we are 25 + Goreans visiting Ports on the Vosk.

There will always be debates and discussions on this forum. It is part of the reason they are here. These forums are a useful tool. Kuddo's to Laja for putting up with us all.

As for sims likes and dislikes, we all have our own personal taste. A sim I might think is the best thing to Gor sl since prim paga, others may hate. But I vote with my avatar by going and playing on that sim and...asking others to join me.

Yeah, that's my point. Of course there will always be this or that thing that we can all spend hours discussing what we like or don't like about this or that sim. There was a time, as I said, I didn't have anyone to "grab me" and play. I didn't know about the forums, I didn't know where to look, search didn't take me to anything that resembled the false advertizing. Or rather, incomplete advertizing. Yeah sure I can search "Gor" I can search "BtB" or just "Roleplay" but it is driven by traffic numbers and key words. NOthing factual.

I am creating a network, a really simple basic network of sims that adhere or respect the 5 points outlined above. It doesn't have to be complicated. And to answer Violetta, it would be first and foremost for BTB RP SIMs. But add another level to the search criteria, enable an enhanced search and add to it more then the basic "labels". And as for who defines what is authentic, I suggested a community/peer "open" voting place where rules of engagement could be examined. Anyone can vote, IF you also agree with the 5 points that should make up the Network. If you don't agree, then you don't vote, then you don't get a hud or join the group, and you have lost nothing... The benefit of this network for sim owners however, and for respective players is pretty obvious. Instead of traffic, you're leading players to your SIM that you already know feel the same way you do about RP. Or at least, are on the same page. I am picturing the smaller sims who can never make the traffic numbers to get enough people and rely solely on word of mouth. That's all Networking is, bigger word of mouth.

SL Gor has a fat chance of agreeing on anything. I'm not climbing that mountain, I think there are far more leader-able people who could take those reins and accomplish something great.



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Xaz Elephas
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« 10. January 2012, 02:55:31 »
I don't think we need more labels put on Gor-Sl sims. I think we need to just support the sims we like by playing on them.
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Kaitlin Eiren
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« 10. January 2012, 03:25:43 »
I don't think we need more labels put on Gor-Sl sims. I think we need to just support the sims we like by playing on them.

That was my opinion as well.
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« 10. January 2012, 03:29:07 »
I don't think we need more labels put on Gor-Sl sims. I think we need to just support the sims we like by playing on them.

That was my opinion as well.

Except that the BtB label doesn't really mean that much anymore.  Wink
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Kaitlin Eiren
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« 10. January 2012, 03:45:16 »
I don't think we need more labels put on Gor-Sl sims. I think we need to just support the sims we like by playing on them.

That was my opinion as well.

Except that the BtB label doesn't really mean that much anymore.  Wink

Actually it never did other than no Femlaw.  Everyone has their own vision of Gor and a hud that checks the box on 5 things of any number of impacts to the RP environment I wouldn't find helpful. 
« Last Edit: 10. January 2012, 03:46:29 by Kaitlin Eiren » Logged

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Good RP = Brain Sex ~Gorm

Kait: http://ladykait.wordpress.com/
Imperial Ar: http://imperialar.info/blog/
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« 10. January 2012, 03:51:01 »
Actually it never did other than no Femlaw.  Everyone has their own vision of Gor and a hud that checks the box on 5 things of any number of impacts to the RP environment I wouldn't find helpful. 

I was really referring to some btb sims starting to waiver on the fighting females line. At least from what I've been reading lately, it seems that way. But that's another topic.

My point is that the labels never really meant much in the first place and I think this really doesn't have much to do with labels anyway. It looks like it has more to do with making finding roleplay a little bit easier for some people.
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Babybear Serenity
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« 10. January 2012, 03:52:24 »
Actually it never did other than no Femlaw.  Everyone has their own vision of Gor and a hud that checks the box on 5 things of any number of impacts to the RP environment I wouldn't find helpful. 

I was really referring to some btb sims starting to waiver on the fighting females line. At least from what I've been reading lately, it seems that way. But that's another topic.

My point is that the labels never really meant much in the first place and I think this really doesn't have much to do with labels anyway. It looks like it has more to do with making finding roleplay a little bit easier for some people.


Yes, this exactly. Thank you Garrgon.
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Kaitlin Eiren
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« 10. January 2012, 03:54:10 »
Actually it never did other than no Femlaw.  Everyone has their own vision of Gor and a hud that checks the box on 5 things of any number of impacts to the RP environment I wouldn't find helpful. 

I was really referring to some btb sims starting to waiver on the fighting females line. At least from what I've been reading lately, it seems that way. But that's another topic.

My point is that the labels never really meant much in the first place and I think this really doesn't have much to do with labels anyway. It looks like it has more to do with making finding roleplay a little bit easier for some people.

I believe it could be just as misleading as "BTB".  Here is an obvious example.  Based on the previous rules in Tarnwald they would not have been on this list of "Authentic Gorean Roleplay Sims".  How many people would have steered clear based on this classification when the actual RP offered was pretty great to begin with.  The sim owner changing the rules or clarifying them didn't change a thing about the experience.  
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Role-players vs Lifestylers: There is no safety in declaring which camp you are in; there are morons and valuable people in either group. ~Dren

Good RP = Brain Sex ~Gorm

Kait: http://ladykait.wordpress.com/
Imperial Ar: http://imperialar.info/blog/
T&S: http://teslikandsiproot.wordpress.com/
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« 10. January 2012, 04:03:59 »
Actually it never did other than no Femlaw.  Everyone has their own vision of Gor and a hud that checks the box on 5 things of any number of impacts to the RP environment I wouldn't find helpful. 

I was really referring to some btb sims starting to waiver on the fighting females line. At least from what I've been reading lately, it seems that way. But that's another topic.

My point is that the labels never really meant much in the first place and I think this really doesn't have much to do with labels anyway. It looks like it has more to do with making finding roleplay a little bit easier for some people.

I believe it could be just as misleading as "BTB".  Here is an obvious example.  Based on the previous rules in Tarnwald they would not have been on this list of "Authentic Gorean Roleplay Sims".  How many people would have steered clear based on this classification when the actual RP offered was pretty great to begin with.  The sim owner changing the rules or clarifying them didn't change a thing about the experience.  

If you don't like it, then don't use it and don't be a part of it.  In the end, as with everything, the masses of SL Gor will decide if this is something that is supported and used, or fizzles and dies.

The sim owners of Tarnwald were greatful for showing descrepencies in their rules from what actually occurred on sim.   Is it better now that their rules reflect what occurs on sim, or should it have been left to have their rules filled with incorrect statements that turned people away who might otherwise have enjoyed RPing there.

This is nothing but an attempt at an enhanced search so you have a starting point out of the hundreds of Gor sims out there to go look up IF you are looking for a pure RP experience.  It is no substitute for going to a sim and interacting with people to find out if you fit and want to be there.

IF you are looking for experiences that blur the OOC / IC line (as people do), then this would be a list of sims you might want to avoid, as it is not what you are looking for.

This isn't meant to be the end all be all, simply a network of like minded people.  Take it or leave it.

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Babybear Serenity
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« 10. January 2012, 04:07:57 »
Actually it never did other than no Femlaw.  Everyone has their own vision of Gor and a hud that checks the box on 5 things of any number of impacts to the RP environment I wouldn't find helpful. 

I was really referring to some btb sims starting to waiver on the fighting females line. At least from what I've been reading lately, it seems that way. But that's another topic.

My point is that the labels never really meant much in the first place and I think this really doesn't have much to do with labels anyway. It looks like it has more to do with making finding roleplay a little bit easier for some people.

I believe it could be just as misleading as "BTB".  Here is an obvious example.  Based on the previous rules in Tarnwald they would not have been on this list of "Authentic Gorean Roleplay Sims".  How many people would have steered clear based on this classification when the actual RP offered was pretty great to begin with.  The sim owner changing the rules or clarifying them didn't change a thing about the experience.  


Right now there is nothing. Search sucks,word of mouth isn't great if you don't have many people to ask. Or perhaps the people you know are also limited in their knowledge since SIMs open and close, and or even the people you know might not have changed cities in a very long time. Just this morning a man I've known for over a year asked me where I RP. Well I'm currently not RPing anywhere, and he wanted my opinion as to where to go for good Torvie RP. I sent him the rules I had from Nidhogr Fjord. But that's the only rules I had. I didn't have any LMs and I didn't have any other information. There are some people on my friends list that won't have a use for a HUD that gives them information about Networked SIMs that share these criteria because they have other preferences. I'm not targeting every single player in all of SL BTB Gor.

BtB is only the first key word/filter a person can apply to seek a place to RP, knowing that they don't want GE, then then where do they go from there? Maybe they want a new home permanently or for a quicky (think: Impress, or just sending your character around Gor for a change of scene for the night or week)  

So anything that helps get people who agree with the 5 simple basic criteria ( of which I know quite a significant number who do) together on sims that will support and encourage player respect and promote authentic RP (my version of the word BtB) is a good thing, in my opinion.


So Kait, its ok, I get it, you don't want a HUD. And about Tarnwald, they did change, that's the thing, all it took was something to make them thankfully take notice. As I have already stated, I'm sure a few sims out there have rules they will admit to are outdated.



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« 10. January 2012, 04:11:22 »
I believe it could be just as misleading as "BTB".  Here is an obvious example.  Based on the previous rules in Tarnwald they would not have been on this list of "Authentic Gorean Roleplay Sims".  How many people would have steered clear based on this classification when the actual RP offered was pretty great to begin with.  The sim owner changing the rules or clarifying them didn't change a thing about the experience.  

First, a disclaimer. I'm part of Tarnwald but obviously haven't roleplayed in a while. I have no first hand knowledge of what the rules were that were changed. From what I read, it sounds like the slave rules needed updating.

Now my response to your comment is -- yes. They would have been bypassed. But that doesn't make them any less of a sim. It doesn't make their roleplay bad.

I think you're reading this like it's meant to be a list of acceptance as a gold star club or something. This isn't about segregating sims. It's not about introducing another new label. It's not about them being the cool club and everyone else being losers with bad roleplay. It's just about those five principals that they'd have in common, and how difficult it is to weed through all of the sims out there - btb, ge, spirit of the books, sims without labels, ge-ish btb sims, lifestyler, neko gor, bdsm with "gor" in the search criteria, etc etc etc - to find the ones that are like minded and operate their sims with the same guidelines.
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Kaitlin Eiren
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« 10. January 2012, 04:21:28 »
Now my response to your comment is -- yes. They would have been bypassed. But that doesn't make them any less of a sim. It doesn't make their roleplay bad.

This is pretty much my only point rather than any that you mentioned following this sentence.  I'm not suggesting the 5 rules they picked out don't have merit only that it doesn't entitle them to be labled "Authentic Gorean RP Sims" since there are countless other practices that could make a mockery of the label. 
Forget the drama (ok there will always be drama  Cheesy ) a little bit and lets smash our heads together and form an OOC alliance or network of Authentic Gorean Roleplay SIMs.
Its subjective just as BTB is subjective.  Rather than funneling RP for people who already know what those 5 things mean and as a by product funneling RP for the new player who might have enjoyed another 5 things why not simply leave it at BTB vs GE. 

She did ask. Dislike  Angry

« Last Edit: 10. January 2012, 04:22:35 by Kaitlin Eiren » Logged

Role-players vs Lifestylers: There is no safety in declaring which camp you are in; there are morons and valuable people in either group. ~Dren

Good RP = Brain Sex ~Gorm

Kait: http://ladykait.wordpress.com/
Imperial Ar: http://imperialar.info/blog/
T&S: http://teslikandsiproot.wordpress.com/
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