Collaring FW More Difficult Than Most Think

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May 2012

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[Taog Ra]

Tal Masters, Mistress's that responded...

Please let me point out i did not WRITE this notecard, it was something I wanted to share as it was something i came across in world and was written by someone well respected in the community. I cannot take any credit for finding the quotes used within the post or such.

Definitely a thread that started healthy discussion so far.  Thanks for sharing.

[Drakena Amaterasu]

I'm not the type of free women that says FW should not get collared at all, but some men in RP act like collaring is THE ONLY punishment fitting for a free woman in any situation.
Free women were collared,yes, but not at all times and not for small reasons,as said before here.

[Revenge Sempati]

Ven looks around and snorts "It is not hard to collar a woman at all the real challenge is finding one worth collaring in the first place.  I do not reduce a woman to slavery to punish her for silly behaviour, I put her in my collar because I want her at my feet providing me pleasure."

Frankly, I think so much better to play out these grey area scenes instead of demanding black/white version of the world.  Gor was not black and white by any stretch.  If free women were collared in the books for insulting men or speaking boldly or ignoring some jackass then the only women that would be free would be the ugly quiet ones that never left their rooms.

[Mathilde Niosaki]

It makes me laugh when a man who shares the same Home Stone as me threatens to collar me or someone else for verbal altercations. As it is a serious matter to actually face strip the woman then haul her ass to the magistrate in order to be tried. Unless she willingly submits in the open to the man or he has saved her life in which then he has right to claim her; he can not just place a collar on the woman and think that is ok. Usually, he will have to answer to her family, guardian, or even the people of their Home Stone. Free women are highly respected and protected within their own home. Of course this doesn't apply if she decides to travel outside to another Home Stone or is taken captive.. those laws or rights applies only to her own home.

In same respect, would she highly insult the men who protects her and her home? No, I don't think so. Would there be minor conflicts or arguments.. of course but I would think as a Gorean woman she would know her place and know not to cross a certain line as well as a man not taking it to heart most of the time. As she would grow up knowing men are the leaders and the stronger of the two. Like with any patriarchial society, women are conditioned to learn from birth that men are stronger.

"Gorean men do not surrender their birthright as males, their rightful dominance, their appropriate mastery. They do not choose to be dictated to by females." Page 51 - Magicians of Gor


This would effect how she would interact with men on very basic level and how she would speak to them. She would know not to cross a certain line most of the time. Of course some would cross it and could suffer the consequences but I don't think it would be collaring. That being said, she still does have the right to speak her mind.. it is a right given to free women.

"You were not struck for such an absurd reason," I said, "You are, after all a free woman, and free women are entitled to insult, and attempt to demean and destroy men. It is one of their freedoms, unless men, of course, should decide to take it from them. You were struck rather, because you were attempting to manipulate me." She nodded, putting her head down." Page 422 - Mercenaries of Gor

Of course there are examples of fw kidnapped and sold into slavery, being spoils of war, owed a debt, or being collared for slavelike behavior. But just for speaking her mind... no. I don't think that would apply.

[Spirit Lapis]

seems collaring isnt the only option going about lately. Was in roleplay earlier and came to find out that 9 Women, yes 9 (a few of which were FW not panthers) rest were panthers, were captured and taken to a city thats supposedly BTB, and killed merely for being found and captured within the forests.

Some men think its fun and gorean to just go about killing FW and Panthers just cause they were in a certain area of the world?... just as bad as the thought that they can collar a FW anytime they like for any reason what so ever without any gorean repercussions.

Now im starting to slowly remember why I left gor before, and why suddenly im becoming irked all over again *sighs*... things like this idiocy make me wanna pack it up and just go play in another RP all together *mumbles*

Some examples i saw and im loosely recalling words here...

While serving a Free at home, a couple of strangers are on the docks, and basically I overhear part of their convesation they were arguing with each other, and basically, exchanging insults, and from words used by the FM (C*nt etc - which imho is NOT gorean i do not recall c*nt being used in the books) were far worse then the 'Tarsk' the FW had called him. And he threatened to there and then strip her naked and make her a slave for it.  Its pathetic. Wow she must really have insulted his manhood by calling him a tarsk *mock shame*.

Also why all the sudden influx in needing to kill captives that are panthers or who talk with panthers? The case of the panthers and the Fw who, in Rarus were killed merely for being what they are after capture. Impaled! over 4 in one day alone was impaled in that citys walls merely for being panthers.

Okay fair enuff panthers were menaces i get it. Panthers are outlaws and as such believe themselves outside of gorean laws and go by their own just like any outlaw would but why kill a captured panther? Your denying yourself some serious coinage, and slave meat by doing it, PLUS, Goreans, by books, valued ALL life, even that of slaves they didnt just go about killing. Hell even Assasins had standards.

[Poisonous Adored]

seems collaring isnt the only option going about lately. Was in roleplay earlier and came to find out that 9 Women, yes 9 (a few of which were FW not panthers) rest were panthers, were captured and taken to a city thats supposedly BTB, and killed merely for being found and captured within the forests.

I have already seen captive panther girls being killed on a sim because their RP was only... Stupid, unrealistic behavior and people around got tired of that crap. They killed them and so, get rid of (and banned by a mod as they reseted meter and caused OOC issues),

But killing a captive panther girl only because she was found and captured within forests, it's just stupid and unrealistic. Not BTB

[Violetta Daviau]

...
While serving a Free at home, a couple of strangers are on the docks, and basically I overhear part of their convesation they were arguing with each other, and basically, exchanging insults, and from words used by the FM (C*nt etc - which imho is NOT gorean i do not recall c*nt being used in the books) were far worse then the 'Tarsk' the FW had called him. And he threatened to there and then strip her naked and make her a slave for it.  Its pathetic. Wow she must really have insulted his manhood by calling him a tarsk *mock shame*.
...

In that matter I guess many of us earthen players are too modern as to imagine what would be an insult for a person that basically lives in ancient/darkages times. We see cunt, treeslut and such athmosphere endangering choices of words. If we want to express to search for something, we do not say we google either.
Words like maybe whore, tarsk, bosk, sleen, slavelike, shamefull, unskilled, dishonoring one's house/family/caste, I think, might be already very offending or mocking for a Gorean, in higher and lower extend and depending on his/her role. But any IC swearword is only as good as the IC reaction to it...

seems collaring isnt the only option going about lately. Was in roleplay earlier and came to find out that 9 Women, yes 9 (a few of which were FW not panthers) rest were panthers, were captured and taken to a city thats supposedly BTB, and killed merely for being found and captured within the forests.

I have already seen captive panther girls being killed on a sim because their RP was only... Stupid, unrealistic behavior and people around got tired of that crap. They killed them and so, get rid of (and banned by a mod as they reseted meter and caused OOC issues),

But killing a captive panther girl only because she was found and captured within forests, it's just stupid and unrealistic. Not BTB

Panther Girls are outlaws, so basically an impalement can be accepted to happen, but usually in Gor Books women were given or took the chance to submit to save themselfes. Yet not even that is a 100% guarantee to be left alive, as the enslavement of Tarna shows, who was enslaved and had to be saved by Tarl from being slain for her "free time's crimes". What I hope did not happen in the above example is that a warrior captured a panther girl, said "now I kill her" and did not allow her a way out for the fun of playing the kill roleplay itself. That would set him on equal tasteless low-quality RP style as the countless warriors/outlaws that think they have to cut off a panther girl's nipples and clit, sew her labia and lips, brand her with a square-yard big personal brand, shave her, cut her tongue and carve his 20 letter name with a knife all about her body. (I have seen it all in capture returning panther girl sisters, trust me)

What people need to learn, and why I support the killing of panther GIRLS (and any other girls in that aspect, and any other roles too, men, whomever) is that a Gorean, in the books at least, if threatening a mutilation, death or any other punishment, captive treatment, usually seriously means it. And that means that if a captive does not try to save his/her life, they will have to endure the consequences of ignoring, neglecting or else not taking serious the threats of the captor. How do people save their lifes in the books commonly? They submit.

So if anyone thinks, and that accounts for panther girls and any other role out there, and depending on the definition of the word submission even for slaves, that submission is not for them, that mutilation is excluded by their limits and killing a bad style of roleplay, and have that OOC opinions/knowledge influence their IC behaviour, then tough luck: Suffer the consequences. No one should have mercy with those persons' bad style of playing. But let them be the white knight, no matter if they are the so cool warrior or a panther girl, an authentic gorean human they are not, not in my eyes. I predict they will not even honor what was done to them because they will try to project their bad style onto others.

On the other hand, killing without basically much RP or real IC chance to save oneself, the death threat as very first opening to the captive play, is poor too. There should be some play that leads to the decision of the person to submit or not, and eventually, to make it more intense, one should pause the killing emote when the tip of one's dagger already entered the chest half an inch to allow a last second submission or such.

[Violetta Daviau]

Ven looks around and snorts "It is not hard to collar a woman at all the real challenge is finding one worth collaring in the first place.  I do not reduce a woman to slavery to punish her for silly behaviour, I put her in my collar because I want her at my feet providing me pleasure."

...

Your opinion, of course, all honored as your's, and I will not write now to say that You should change your perception, but to state something that I would consider also possible in the aspect of a free woman being enslaved, or what happens to any enslaved person.

In my eyes, especially if a woman gets enslaved, and even more if it is as punishment, SL Gorean players too fast go into the direction of converting her into a personal love slave, a private, often even OOC "restricted" pleasure slave.
What had been grossly missing, as I personally see it, is to enslave a person, from raid captive to overly insolent FW, and render her a working girl for the camp's/city's logistical needs, e.g. latrine cleaner, sewer cleaner, street broomer, also coin girl, tarn pen cleaner, kettle girl, actual farm works, cloth dyeing, miner and such works - in the beginning either chained to the spot, plow, sleen scented or avatar guarded.
In a little beginning extend, such is already seen: Many captured girls are made Paga Slaves of the local taverns, but it feels usually that such happens to dump the captive off one's own responsibility and stuff the captive into a tavern, naked, unguarded, as if she would be already a perfectly submitted person or one would not care anymore if she flees or not. It is usually made so that there actually are some paga girls at all, or at least some present, yet the captive does not get much RP as most visitors come with their private slaves and have those serve.
Nevertheless playing such chores, together, aside of other things, e.g. humiliating talks, passing time to a trial or similar, is as I experienced it with others, a lot of fun too. And it gives the captured woman also maybe a way to want to regain her freedom in some way (which is possible more in SL Gor than in Book Gor) and return to her group, respectively normal role. If one strives to make a girl a pleasure or even love slave and manages to make her love the master, all men and in the end her position / new role, the will for freedom itself is usually broken totally and the FW is lost to the community / the captive to her group.

Such dirty hard work while being surveilled was at least for me always desireable, to be, when captured, more a part of a working crew/team including free guards/surveillors than a immideate one person restricted neatly and silently kneeling love girl adorned with cute silks and waiting for another bit of attention while he talks to his brothers in the restaurant.

[Revenge Sempati]

@ Vio, I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek with my comments, but yes the gist is that Ven is picky and a bit eccentrically opinionated.  I do not want the instant love captive either, much like you I enjoy playing out those tense aspects that seem to be too often glazed over.  I want to play with a "real" person not some two-dimensional characterture.

I have never agreed with the aggressive chest thumping shouts of "I'll collar you now" that get tossed around far too often.  I well know my way is not the only way as I see it there is no right or wrong, quite simply it is just how Ven does things.  Ven has rather split view of the world, people of his home stone tend to be treated and held in different regard than those that are not.  He would shrug off an insulting barrage or being slapped around by woman of his home stone, however if woman of Treve simply looked at him he would likely plot to get her in chains to clean the barrack latrines.

Many captured girls are made Paga Slaves of the local taverns, but it feels usually that such happens to dump the captive off one's own responsibility and stuff the captive into a tavern, naked, unguarded, as if she would be already a perfectly submitted person or one would not care anymore if she flees or not. It is usually made so that there actually are some paga girls at all, or at least some present, yet the captive does not get much RP as most visitors come with their private slaves and have those serve.

Two sides to that unfortunately and I have shared similar fate being in panther camp chains as captive RP tends to happen in isolated bubble worlds that nobody else gets involved.  I understand though that most captive women tend to be abandoned or demanded to be perfect slaves as soon as collar is snapped on their neck.  I do not like that, it is not what I do and if I take a captive I try and play it out how I think it should happen and not the instant change that tends to occur normally.
Really, SL Gor needs more examples of playing out the entire process and all the different ways these things can occur realistically.  Hell I prefer talking with fresh captive and having her spit venom words at me than sit around with her wriggling on my boot while I sip paga in a tavern.

The journey is the key, not the end destination, because once you arrive it is all over.

[Poisonous Adored]

Violetta, in books, the panther girls are seen like excellent potential slaves. Never a panther would be killed after her capture because she is an outlaw.
Verna's example was different, in the sense that she ran away and had been captured again. Marlenus wanted to break her totally, she was the strongest and proudest panther girl he had ever met and he considered her as a personal enemy.

Tharna was a woman acting like a criminal in the Tahari, for the service of a man who had been recognized working for the kurii. You cannot compare. She was kept alive because Tarl saved her and hid her from her enemies, making her a kajira.

Panther girls are outlaws, there are not criminals.

Killing a panther girl after her capture, is poor RP and non BTB RP. It's not a cultural Gorean action.

[Violetta Daviau]

@Ven: My type of captor 

(Edited the rest out, need to be more awake for a good reply)