The true source of Gor and Goreans?

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May 2012

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[Spirit Lapis]

I discovered that there may be another person who should be credited with the creation of Gor. There is not a great deal of historical evidence on this topic. However, the content is based on scattered remnants of writings and the educated speculation of historians.

The following are exerpts from the information found and is offered to create discussion and thought as opposed to any direct challenge to John Norman being the creator of Gor. I hope you enjoy the information and the braoden perspective of Gor and Goreans.

Pythagoras, in truth, should be credited for laying the initial ground work for John Norman's series of books on Gor, in addition to the theory of the counter-earth, other such notable foundations include the Central Fire and the Initiates, or at least the principle of the Initiates. Let's take a look at great thinker and philosopher. Oh, and don't be surprised if many things seem overtly familiar!

The account given by the Pythagoreans of the "harmony of the spheres" is the best illustration of their method. There are, they said, ten heavenly bodies, namely, the heaven of the fixed stars, the five planets, the sun, the moon, the earth, and the counter-earth. .The counter-earth is added because it is necessary to make up the number ten, the perfect number. It is a body under the earth, moving parallel with it, and, since it moves at the same rate of speed, it is invisible to us. The five planets, the sun, the moon, and the earth with its counter-earth, moving from west to east at rates of speed proportionate to the distance of each from the central fire, produce eight tones which give an octave, and , therefore, a harmony.

The Pythagoreans taught that the planets (including the invisible Counter-Earth on the other side of the Sun), the Moon and the Sun were fixed on great spheres of crystal, rotating around a central fire. Their motions create the exquisite harmony of the spheres, which ordinary people cannot hear because they are too used to it. The Pythagoreans made no distinction between music, mathematics and magick. Music was found to be based upon subtle mathematical laws, and so was magick. Everything in the universe follows mathematical laws and is created out of the geometrical interactions of the numbers, which are the true basis of reality.

Pythagoras also developed a rather sophisticated cosmology. He and his followers believed the earth to be perfectly spherical and that heavenly bodies, likewise perfect spheres, moved as the Earth around a central fire invisible to human eyes, which was not the sun for it also circled this central fire.

Pythagorean philosophy was the prime source of inspiration for Plato and Aristotle; the influence of these philosophers is without question and is immeasurable. Their ideas were adopted by Plato and through him later influenced the Gnostics and the Order of Hermes (and the Technocracy to some extent). These followers, as society shortened their name, became known as Goreans as a philosophical group and practitioners .

There were ten (10) objects circling the central fire which included a counter-earth assumed to be there to account from some eclipses but also because they believed the number ten (10) to be particularly sacred. Pythagoras taught that there was not one principle underlying the sensible universe, but ten (10), and that these were organized in contrasting pairs:
1. Limit and Unlimited
2. Odd and Even
3. One and Plurality
4. Right and Left
5. Male and Female
6. Rest and Motion
7. Straight and Crooked
8. Light and Darkness
9. Good and Evil
10. Square and Oblong

This is the first coherent system in which celestial bodies move in circles, an idea that was to survive for two thousand years. It was also stated that heavenly bodies give forth musical sounds "the harmony of the spheres'' as they move in the cosmos, a music which we cannot discern, being used to it from childhood (a sort of background noise); though we would certainly notice if anything went wrong! The Pythagoreans did not believe that music, numbers and cosmos were just related, they believed that music was number and that the cosmos was music.

Though much about Pythagoras is unknown, it is certain, however, that he founded a school, or, rather, a religious philosophical society, for which he drew up a rule of life, and in this rule are said to have been regulations imposing secrecy, a protracted period of silence, celibacy, and various kinds of abstinence. The sect was strict, ascetic and centralized. Members swore an oath of silence and weren't allowed to say anything until they had listened to the teachings of the Master for five years. The authority of the Master was total, his word was not to be questioned in any way whatsoever. All results were attributed to the sect or to the Master, not to their discoverers who remained anonymous. The school was instructed by its founder to devote itself to the cultivation of philosophy, mathematics, music, gymnastics, astronomy and magick, the aim of the organization being primarily ethical. In this picture by Raphael, Pythagoras, the man in the center with the book, is teaching music in The School of Athens.

Both men and women were permitted to become members of the Society, in fact several later women Pythagoreans became famous philosophers. They were strict vegetarians, and were also prohibited from eating beans since they were thought to house the souls of the dead. They could not wear clothes made of wool; the could not pick up anything that had fallen, or stir a fire with iron. The sect was divided between the akousmatikoi (hearers) and the mathematikoi (learned).

The outer circle of the Society were known as the akousmatikoi, (also seen: akousmatics) who lived in their own houses, only coming to the Society during the day. They were allowed their own possessions and were not required to be vegetarians. The mathematikoi lived permanently with the Society, had no personal possessions and were vegetarians. They were taught by Pythagoras himself and obeyed strict rules.

Sound a little familiar, perhaps like a basic description of an Initiate?

The Pythagorean Table of Opposites also articulates the opposition between male and female starkly.

[Chimes Acker]

Quite Interesting Spirit,
Thank you for the excellent reading.

Beast

[Aphris Myoo]

I think John Lange as a professor in philosophy, for sure studied Pythagoras, which was not an unimportant philosopher in Greece.

[Carter Ebbage]

Sometimes I wonder if other "fictional themes" ie. Lord of the Ring, Star Trek attract this degree of intellectual analysis... or is it because GOR addresses very personal and emotional traits.

Just a thought.. and thanks for the post. Makes a big difference to  be reading something which doesnt mention combat, panthers, slaves serving and meters. Which is all icing on the cake and often detracts from the actual underlying theme of GOR which you have drawn to our attention.

[Delaynie Barbosa]

Very interesting Spirit thank you for posting.  JN, as a philosopher,  absolutely would have studied Pythagorus; he is one of the grandfathers of philosophy and science.  The Pythagorean theory at the very minimum is taught in every pre-algebra classes across the nation. Teachers (and most of the textbooks), talk a little bit about Pythagoras and his contributions to science. We even see a little bit countenance in the novels; the ideas of the south are the same but opposite of the values of the north. For example, fiesty bondmaids of the north reflect spirited kajira of the south. Ruthless pillagers of Torvaldsland who stop at nothing to get what they want reflects the boldness of southern warriors who claim what they want without hesitatation.  Same ideas expressed in two different ways, much like earth and counter-earth.  Thanks for sharing!

[Nigaltwaddlesworthiii]

Sometimes I wonder if other "fictional themes" ie. Lord of the Ring, Star Trek attract this degree of intellectual analysis... or is it because GOR addresses very personal and emotional traits.

Yep to all Carter..

Way back in the days before gray..well actually.. white hair..when I was younger.. (coughs).. and way before the remake of LoTR made it more popular.. I belonged to a reading group on MSN Chat that actually acted somewhat like this forum does only we were all in it live chatting.. a lot of time was spent discussing the subtexts within LoTR, Star Trek, Star Wars, Gor, and other fantasy series including even Alice and the Looking glass and the OZ series as well... all very political, intelectual and philosophical discussions... it was really kind of fun and the thinking part of my brain misses it..chuckles..

the old lazy part of my brain says.. "Meh".. lets drink some mead and fuck some slaves and leave the hard thinking to the younger ones"...

[steamyraj]

Sometimes I wonder if other "fictional themes" ie. Lord of the Ring, Star Trek attract this degree of intellectual analysis... or is it because GOR addresses very personal and emotional traits.

Thanks Carter for saying that..i'm still trying to understand why people are so possessed about Gor or being Gorean... for me The Gor is, what i could see" Women=slave=collar=rape=sex=women" at least in the books... is it a philosophy.. i would say no... Sci-fi... no because Gor actually takes a person back in stone age.

Not sure if i'm a sci-fi/ fiction fan but i like movies like "Inception" and "the matrix"... and i did some research on these two topics as these two brought something which i could never thought of. I liked LoRT but just liked it nothing more... STar Trek i liked it very much when i was kiddo but now i just rolle eyes... for example... that Jedi character, he finds out easily that a planet is being destroyed lights years away but can’t tell that he is kissing his own sister?
And yeah this Twilight... A 100 yr old " VIRGIN" Vampire.... i just died laughing.... but i did like "underworld"...

Currently i'm just trying to understand Gor, Gorean and why people are soooo fascinated...

[Mel Fitzcarraldo]

...STar Trek i liked it very much when i was kiddo but now i just rolle eyes... for example... that Jedi character, he finds out easily that a planet is being destroyed lights years away but can’t tell that he is kissing his own sister?.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!
-1000 SiFi FU on you!

[Delaynie Barbosa]

Sometimes I wonder if other "fictional themes" ie. Lord of the Ring, Star Trek attract this degree of intellectual analysis... or is it because GOR addresses very personal and emotional traits.

Thanks Carter for saying that..i'm still trying to understand why people are so possessed about Gor or being Gorean... for me The Gor is, what i could see" Women=slave=collar=rape=sex=women" at least in the books... is it a philosophy.. i would say no... Sci-fi... no because Gor actually takes a person back in stone age.

Not sure if i'm a sci-fi/ fiction fan but i like movies like "Inception" and "the matrix"... and i did some research on these two topics as these two brought something which i could never thought of. I liked LoRT but just liked it nothing more... STar Trek i liked it very much when i was kiddo but now i just rolle eyes... for example... that Jedi character, he finds out easily that a planet is being destroyed lights years away but can’t tell that he is kissing his own sister?
And yeah this Twilight... A 100 yr old Vampire.... i just died laughing.... but i did like "underworld"...

Currently i'm just trying to understand Gor, Gorean and why people are soooo fascinated...

I think the human factor brings people to Gor. After all, Goreans are only human. And there are many social themes to explore:

- Dominance and submission (the basis of social roles)
- Freedom and slavery (What is freedom, where does it really lay?)
- Honor, duty, and loyalty (One's place in society and life)
- The Law and the lawless (What does it mean to be an outlaw?)
- Culture and cultural diversity (Common traits and diverse belief systems across various social systems)

Is it sci-fi? It certainly has elements of sci-fi:

- space travel (the hero himself was from Earth)
- advanced technologies (medicine mostly)
- oppressed technologies (armor, electricity, etc).
- intergalactic warfare (The fate of the galaxy, war between the PKs and Kurii)
- control by an unseen hand (Priest Kings)

Why is sex and rape so prevalent in SL Gor? Enjoyment of sexuality was the reason men collared women, and Gorean societies are all based on Dominance and submission. Who doesn't like a pretty kajira, scantily clad, ready to do bidding and ready to be used? Even women's slaves had sexual needs. So no surprise kink found its way into roleplay; it's fun, steamy, and ultimately Gorean.  But I also see sword tournaments, Kurii, animals, and outlaws to be prevalent themes for roleplay and events. So I think you're a bit off base with your analysis that Gor is all about sex and not at all sci-fi. It's not well developed, and anyway, it's thinly veiled philosophy. John Norman is a philosopher, after all, and Gor is very much his platform. Tarl goes off on philosophical tangents all the time; through his soliloquies we see into the mind of John Norman and his ideas. While SL Gor doesn't necessarily represent what is written in the books, the books are our starting point. We take the vocabularly and themes and use them to create our own play space. And for thousands, it's a wonderful thing. For those who don't care for it, there's other roleplay worlds that will cater to your needs.

[steamyraj]

...STar Trek i liked it very much when i was kiddo but now i just rolle eyes... for example... that Jedi character, he finds out easily that a planet is being destroyed lights years away but can’t tell that he is kissing his own sister?.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!
-1000 SiFi FU on you!

Sits back with his drinks ... calls Chuck Norris... gets you "a" roundhouse kick whick might be equals to your 1000 Scifi... and ask... what you say???

PS... I LOVED you reply... man... it made me just ROFLMNGAO= rolling on the floor laughing my new gorean ass off

[steamyraj]

Sometimes I wonder if other "fictional themes" ie. Lord of the Ring, Star Trek attract this degree of intellectual analysis... or is it because GOR addresses very personal and emotional traits.

Thanks Carter for saying that..i'm still trying to understand why people are so possessed about Gor or being Gorean... for me The Gor is, what i could see" Women=slave=collar=rape=sex=women" at least in the books... is it a philosophy.. i would say no... Sci-fi... no because Gor actually takes a person back in stone age.

Not sure if i'm a sci-fi/ fiction fan but i like movies like "Inception" and "the matrix"... and i did some research on these two topics as these two brought something which i could never thought of. I liked LoRT but just liked it nothing more... STar Trek i liked it very much when i was kiddo but now i just rolle eyes... for example... that Jedi character, he finds out easily that a planet is being destroyed lights years away but can’t tell that he is kissing his own sister?
And yeah this Twilight... A 100 yr old Vampire.... i just died laughing.... but i did like "underworld"...

Currently i'm just trying to understand Gor, Gorean and why people are soooo fascinated...

I think the human factor brings people to Gor. After all, Goreans are only human. And there are many social themes to explore:

- Dominance and submission (the basis of social roles)
- Freedom and slavery (What is freedom, where does it really lay?)
- Honor, duty, and loyalty (One's place in society and life)
- The Law and the lawless (What does it mean to be an outlaw?)
- Culture and cultural diversity (Common traits and diverse belief systems across various social systems)

Is it sci-fi? It certainly has elements of sci-fi:

- space travel (the hero himself was from Earth)
- advanced technologies (medicine mostly)
- oppressed technologies (armor, electricity, etc).
- intergalactic warfare (The fate of the galaxy, war between the PKs and Kurii)
- control by an unseen hand (Priest Kings)

Why is sex and rape so prevalent in SL Gor? Enjoyment of sexuality was the reason men collared women, and Gorean societies are all based on Dominance and submission. Who doesn't like a pretty kajira, scantily clad, ready to do bidding and ready to be used? Even women's slaves had sexual needs. So no surprise kink found its way into roleplay; it's fun, steamy, and ultimately Gorean.  But I also see sword tournaments, Kurii, animals, and outlaws to be prevalent themes for roleplay and events. So I think you're a bit off base with your analysis that Gor is all about sex and not at all sci-fi. It's not well developed, and anyway, it's thinly veiled philosophy. John Norman is a philosopher, after all, and Gor is very much his platform. Tarl goes off on philosophical tangents all the time; through his soliloquies we see into the mind of John Norman and his ideas. While SL Gor doesn't necessarily represent what is written in the books, the books are our starting point. We take the vocabularly and themes and use them to create our own play space. And for thousands, it's a wonderful thing. For those who don't care for it, there's other roleplay worlds that will cater to your needs.

Del, this is your version and i'm really glad that you posted that... i have a entirely different thought process but thank you for "breaking in to "bullets" points"... you made my life "easy"

Lets not heck the OPs intentions.... if someone need can open a new thread... but i will "wait" for mine...or if i get my answers i won't even bother to open a discussion... ...

[pasy namiboo]

...STar Trek i liked it very much when i was kiddo but now i just rolle eyes... for example... that Jedi character, he finds out easily that a planet is being destroyed lights years away but can’t tell that he is kissing his own sister?.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!
-1000 SiFi FU on you!

The Jedi was in Star Wars, not Star Trek. I think maybe this was the reason for Mel's eloquant resonse.

[steamyraj]

...STar Trek i liked it very much when i was kiddo but now i just rolle eyes... for example... that Jedi character, he finds out easily that a planet is being destroyed lights years away but can’t tell that he is kissing his own sister?.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!
-1000 SiFi FU on you!

The Jedi was in Star Wars, not Star Trek. I think maybe this was the reason for Mel's eloquant resonse.

Hail the "correcter"... but isn't it Scifi that i mixed both.... but thank you for your "correction or perfection".. i love it..