Mouthy FW in Gor

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May 2012

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[Novalee Eiren]

So it's been said and discussed and ripped apart many of times before. But after reading these rules of a "BTB" sim, it left me confused.

A FW can or cannot be collared for being mouthy towards a FM or not?
 I'm inserting said rules of the sim, respectfully.

* Being mouthy, flirty, rude or carrying a weapon you are not allowed may cause you to get collared.
...But still free women are highly respected, this does not allow you to go around and disrespectfully speak to the men.
* Being mouthy or rude may cause the following punishments;
By any men;
- Public Beating
- Public whipping
- Being stripped and chained publicly
By your protector/companion;
- Being temporarily collared in his private quarters
- Being temporarily collared publicly with a belt

[Syndel Daviau]

Depends on location, station, citizenship... a variety of things.

[Aphris Myoo]

Free women are allowed to be mouthy in Gor. So why rules to punish them for that. Are men not capable of dealing with mouthy women? Most men just let them talk and ignore, and if she makes it too bad, it can be solved IC. No reason to put this in the rules.

"Did you strike me because I challenged your
manhood?" she asked. "I did not really mean it. It is only that
I was terribly angry. I did not think."
"You were not struck for such an absurd reason," I said.
"You are, after all, a free woman, and free women are entitled
to insult, and to attempt to demean and destroy men. It is
one of their freedoms, unless men, of course, should decide
to take it from them. You were struck, rather, because you
were attempting to manipulate me."

[Delaynie Barbosa]

"Beware your words," I cautioned her.
"I am a free woman," she said. "I can speak I please.
I could no gainsay her in this. She was free. She could, accordingly, say what she wished, and without requiring permission.
              Mercenaries of Gor, page 7

********

See, Gorean men are firm, dominant, resolute.  They don't have to be assholes to get what they want; it isn't really supossed to occur them that hey aren't in charge.  And they aren't bothered by mouthy free women; they are above it.  Any man who is bothered by the vulo clucking of free women has bigger problems. Or smaller ones *looks down*










Delaynie Barbosa Runs.

[Melchior Wardell]

With all respect for the poster of said quote, I feel that this quote is often used when it is only a part of the entire dynamic of FW within Gor.

There are plenty of quotes that will tell you that the woman are free as to the choice of a man, such would indicate that a woman that might comply as perfectly can still face that her freedom is taken. However the books give some ideas as to why a man wouldn't. However that every woman knows that her freedom is a thin line.

When a woman argues with a man, he most likely wouldn't take it to the extend of collaring her. He might even just laugh at it, slap her face to get her out of her fit and continue his way.

I think if you will look at the total package we know there are some pillars, which is caste - Home Stone - male dominance. A woman of your homestone performing her castework should be respected. However if the woman behaves unfitting of it a man might have a very strong case for giving the woman a whipping or even in such extend he will collar her - AFTER - he took it to a magistrate.

For instance a warrior that feels a woman is dresses and act improper could make a decision as to what he believes best for the Home Stone.

Now from my past experience - women - often argue a mans honour and dominance, sensative things for every Gorean. To question honour is a high offense in Gorean society when it comes to caste or Home Stone. A woman that does so - could face consequenses eventhough the quote might tell different.

The quote is only a part of an entire series of books.

So I think it much depends on - What is argued, With whom is argued and to which extend is argued.

But when we look at the mayor parts that are in to play - it wouldn't be simply at whim of the man (unless he is a warrior - since they take by steel = although his superiors might see his act as dishonourable - and the consequences could turn on him) but the man might have a very strong case for if a woman thinks that quote will keep her free.

But this is just my 2 cents.

[Meri Slade]

I wonder what "mouthy" means to the writer of those rules.

Mouthy could mean that they just talk a lot or it could mean that they are bombastic in their words. I suspect that the writer meant "insulting" rather then rambling or pretentious.

The rules also don't mention if this is for citizens or visitors. Visitors have no rights in any homestone other then their own. A FW citizen though should have the protection of the homestone, even when she's mouthy (in any definition of the word).

The quote "Free Women are only free because men allow it." can be very twisted in SL Gor. That doesn't mean that any Tom, Dick or Harry can throw a collar on a Free Woman that's yelling at him. As said, she'd be taken to the magistrate who would order if there was going to be a punishment, what it would be and who would carry it out.

I'd have no problem telling a Free Man of my city that he smells like a dead vulo and needs the attentions of a bath girl but I would never tell him he's dishonorable or call him a kajirus. That's my line that I don't cross, for fear of being hauled off to the magistrate.

If I played in that sim, I wouldn't last a day.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

Free women are allowed to be mouthy in Gor. So why rules to punish them for that. Are men not capable of dealing with mouthy women? Most men just let them talk and ignore, and if she makes it too bad, it can be solved IC. No reason to put this in the rules.

"Did you strike me because I challenged your
manhood?" she asked. "I did not really mean it. It is only that
I was terribly angry. I did not think."
"You were not struck for such an absurd reason," I said.
"You are, after all, a free woman, and free women are entitled
to insult, and to attempt to demean and destroy men. It is
one of their freedoms, unless men, of course, should decide
to take it from them. You were struck, rather, because you
were attempting to manipulate me."

This would depend on station and who the offense was against.  A high caste woman in an exchange with a lower caste citizen of her own city might be relatively safe but the same wouldn't be true with a man of another home stone or with a man of sufficient standing and resources in the city.  I do agree 100% with it being kept IC but most FW believe they have automatic immunity and complete freedom which they do not so a hint in the rules makes sense.  I've highlighted the important part of the quote that is often forgotten.

[Adoveea Rau]

mouth·y  (mou, -th)
adj. mouth·i·er, mouth·i·est
1. Annoyingly talkative.
2. Given to ranting or bombast.


Pulling something I wrote in another posting-it's why rules like that are written in SL Gor.

IN the books, all the women when they are being mouthy/verbally abusive /disparaging to the men, its because of a action/verbal words of the men at/to the women OR those women  have a great interest in  the man and want the man really to collar them-the old gorean this is what the women really want/need from that man routine

NOT like sl gor where bored women walk up and start ragging on the guys just because they can for their egos, want a reaction, or some cheap conflict roleplay thrill.

That gets old REAL fast for the guys. The sl free women roleplayers think they're being so very original being by the book and such, never realizing it's the 100th time that day/week a roleplaying FW woman has done this verbal abuse. Even the roleplaying guys have their limits.
And the guys simply walk off from those women, avoid them, or just flat out react with a threat.

When a free woman in roleplay verbally abuse  a male roleplayer, that FW better damn well better have a real reason and purpose,other then her needs for cheap ego roleplay or scoring on a guy.

[Meri Slade]

Pulling something I wrote in another posting-it's why rules like that are written in SL Gor.

IN the books, all the women when they are being mouthy/verbally abusive /disparaging to the men, its because of a action/verbal words of the men at/to the women OR those women  have a great interest in  the man and want the man really to collar them-the old gorean this is what the women really want/need from that man routine

NOT like sl gor where bored women walk up and start ragging on the guys just because they can for their egos, want a reaction, or some cheap conflict roleplay thrill.

That gets old REAL fast for the guys. The sl free women roleplayers think they're being so very original being by the book and such, never realizing it's the 100th time that day/week a roleplaying FW woman has done this verbal abuse. Even the roleplaying guys have their limits.
And the guys simply walk off from those women, avoid them, or just flat out react with a threat.

When a free woman in roleplay verbally abuse  a male roleplayer, that FW better damn well better have a real reason and purpose,other then her needs for cheap ego roleplay or scoring on a guy.

This. Yes. Thank you for wording that so well.

[ramond lax]

See, Gorean men are firm, dominant, resolute.  They don't have to be assholes to get what they want; it isn't really supossed to occur them that hey aren't in charge.  And they aren't bothered by mouthy free women; they are above it.  Any man who is bothered by the vulo clucking of free women has bigger problems. Or smaller ones *looks down*

I want to address this notion, Because many people take this thought entirely the  wrong way.

Once, I was in a RP situation with a Sim owner, and she was being quite mouthy, insulting and outright mocking.  Now i didn't reply with a threat of a Collar or public flogging, Instead i insulted her back, totally IC, and rather well. I later got informed that I was in the wrong for insulting her like that, and that a REAL Gorean man wouldn't be affected by the mere words of a woman.  

Now, she was Portraying a low caste, and i was a High Caste, She was making a spectacle and i was a Rarius, keeping order in my City, She was basically being a bitch, and i told her off...

But what i found most annoying, was she truly believed that because she was a Free woman, she could say whatever she wished without repercussion.  This isn't at all the case.  Nothing ever happens without a reaction, you just have to gauge the reaction so it is reasonable to the event.  

If a woman insults you, insult her back.  If she strikes you, strike her back.  If she breaks a Law, THEN maybe a Collar is a proper effect, but Don't think that just because you are a Free woman you have carte blanche to do and say whatever you feel.  you are Still a woman on Gor, and Below a Man

[Novalee Eiren]

rule applys to all FW, visitors and citizens alike.

[Aphris Myoo]

Free women are allowed to be mouthy in Gor. So why rules to punish them for that. Are men not capable of dealing with mouthy women? Most men just let them talk and ignore, and if she makes it too bad, it can be solved IC. No reason to put this in the rules.

"Did you strike me because I challenged your
manhood?" she asked. "I did not really mean it. It is only that
I was terribly angry. I did not think."
"You were not struck for such an absurd reason," I said.
"You are, after all, a free woman, and free women are entitled
to insult, and to attempt to demean and destroy men. It is
one of their freedoms, unless men, of course, should decide
to take it from them. You were struck, rather, because you
were attempting to manipulate me."

This would depend on station and who the offense was against.  A high caste woman in an exchange with a lower caste citizen of her own city might be relatively safe but the same wouldn't be true with a man of another home stone or with a man of sufficient standing and resources in the city.  I do agree 100% with it being kept IC but most FW believe they have automatic immunity and complete freedom which they do not so a hint in the rules makes sense.  I've highlighted the important part of the quote that is often forgotten.

Yip, when you make it too worse, society (the men) can take your freedom. How ever not a single man, unless you are so stupid to go unprotected out of your home stone, then you are open prey, mouthy or not.

[Eternity Starsmith]

I always figured that a Gorean man would be unaffected by insults coming from a FW. Her words would be like water off a duck's back to him. Being reactive strikes me as weak and lacking self-control. Besides, what irritates a FW more than being disregarded by the men she's attempting to agitate?

[Delaynie Barbosa]

Lax, that sounds remarkably like the situation Dove was describing in her post. and is not what I was referring to. It's one thing for a woman to be a touch loud, or to be smart alecky, or even downright rude. And that should all be ignored and waves away, what man has time to squabble with a woman?  In your case, defintily different then I meant in my last post. But still, a sim rule, "if you're mouthy you'll be punished."  Free women are allowed to speak and be mean. Not without reprussion, but neither should there be a rule to prevent it. Like so many things in SL Gor, this one isn't BTB so finding a balance will be complex.

[Meri Slade]

Women should not be insulting men just because they can or because they have a false sense of security in being allowed to. If I was playing a Rarius and a woman came up and insulted me for no reason other then to prove that she could, she'd probably spend the night chained to the inside of a bosk pen.

But men shouldn't jump to a stripping and collar every time that a woman is verbal or insulting.

I still think you should find out just what they mean by "mouthy".