OOC Respect

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Kaitlin Eiren]

The way it was explained to me about Lifestylers, by a Lifestyler is in Real Life they live as Goreans, in there homes, in groups... in real life.  In Gor they make sims which they call Life Style sims where to them they are not role-playing but living as Goreans. There is no OOC because there always IC.

Yeah what ever floats your boat fine, have fun, as long as there is some realithy that there is no real planet called Gor. A little role-play in the bed-room in rl can be fun again, as long as no one is being forced.

I post this for what she says only... Real Life, sorry but... she needs help, if someone is affected to that degree that they can not tell real life from fantasy, and no I am not picking on this girl in this video, I a sincere when I say she needs help and I hope one day she gets it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v02B8k6UIo&feature=related

I'm pretty sure I could find a video showing any slice of life you choose in a bad light on youtube.  Take your pick...college student, unemployed, gay, scottish and the list goes on and on.  If you think you have found a gorean on youtube and in the news that even closely resembles the majority I've got some land to sell you.  It might have some entertainment value to assume most rl goreans aren't well balanced, intelligent, wealthy, business owners, teachers, doctors, sports professionals   but that would be all it was and certainly not fact.  It would look nothing like those I've met over many years.

I still say most people wouldn't know a lifestyler if they met one and don't expect to find them at a munch.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

I have  to agree with Xaz some.  I don't like the confusion, and sadly you do you see lifestylers on RP sims who expect you to treat then like lifestylers. They come to roleplay, but for them it's like a roleplay if they were really on Gor instead of a way to write a story.  Or they are "Old Gor" and anything creative sand fun is "Disney."  But you know Gor isn't a real place, and expecting everyone to know your preferences and abide by them is delusional, and Dumbo had a delusion once, so doesn't that make lifestyling "Disney"? 

Also I was there when Meredith was being harrassed, but I didn't know it was going on. I was pretty much ignored by her harrasser all together, I didn't even know there was a problem at all. But once she and her roleplay group had left the sim I became the target of the perpertator's attention. I couldn't figure out what I had done since he'd never given me so much as a "Tal" before. In fact his behavior stopped six of my friends who I brought to see the sim, from joining. It blew up in the group chat, And in an OOC meeting I was told to apoligize to him. In the end, the sim owner sided with him. 

Nepotism and old schoool values rule in Gor ,not gaming roleplay and commonsense.  Asshats like this one prove it.  I just think if you're a roleplayer, you should join Eela's group and make a point to identify for yourself the sims and people to stay away from because God knows they aren't going to.

I also see plenty of roleplayers looking for girlfriends passing out penis pictures.  Asshats...both groups.  Its not hard to find them.

[Delaynie Barbosa]

I have  to agree with Xaz some.  I don't like the confusion, and sadly you do you see lifestylers on RP sims who expect you to treat then like lifestylers. They come to roleplay, but for them it's like a roleplay if they were really on Gor instead of a way to write a story.  Or they are "Old Gor" and anything creative sand fun is "Disney."  But you know Gor isn't a real place, and expecting everyone to know your preferences and abide by them is delusional, and Dumbo had a delusion once, so doesn't that make lifestyling "Disney"? 

Also I was there when Meredith was being harrassed, but I didn't know it was going on. I was pretty much ignored by her harrasser all together, I didn't even know there was a problem at all. But once she and her roleplay group had left the sim I became the target of the perpertator's attention. I couldn't figure out what I had done since he'd never given me so much as a "Tal" before. In fact his behavior stopped six of my friends who I brought to see the sim, from joining. It blew up in the group chat, And in an OOC meeting I was told to apoligize to him. In the end, the sim owner sided with him. 

Nepotism and old schoool values rule in Gor ,not gaming roleplay and commonsense.  Asshats like this one prove it.  I just think if you're a roleplayer, you should join Eela's group and make a point to identify for yourself the sims and people to stay away from because God knows they aren't going to.

I also see plenty of roleplayers looking for girlfriends passing out penis pictures.  Asshats...both groups.  Its not hard to find them.

I also see plenty of girls getting jealous and insisting on monogamy. In gor.  But for me, and I speak only for myself here, is the defining difference is roleplayers have a boundary where they will stop and lifestylers don't, and that is where the problem starts.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

I have  to agree with Xaz some.  I don't like the confusion, and sadly you do you see lifestylers on RP sims who expect you to treat then like lifestylers. They come to roleplay, but for them it's like a roleplay if they were really on Gor instead of a way to write a story.  Or they are "Old Gor" and anything creative sand fun is "Disney."  But you know Gor isn't a real place, and expecting everyone to know your preferences and abide by them is delusional, and Dumbo had a delusion once, so doesn't that make lifestyling "Disney"? 

Also I was there when Meredith was being harrassed, but I didn't know it was going on. I was pretty much ignored by her harrasser all together, I didn't even know there was a problem at all. But once she and her roleplay group had left the sim I became the target of the perpertator's attention. I couldn't figure out what I had done since he'd never given me so much as a "Tal" before. In fact his behavior stopped six of my friends who I brought to see the sim, from joining. It blew up in the group chat, And in an OOC meeting I was told to apoligize to him. In the end, the sim owner sided with him. 

Nepotism and old schoool values rule in Gor ,not gaming roleplay and commonsense.  Asshats like this one prove it.  I just think if you're a roleplayer, you should join Eela's group and make a point to identify for yourself the sims and people to stay away from because God knows they aren't going to.

I also see plenty of roleplayers looking for girlfriends passing out penis pictures.  Asshats...both groups.  Its not hard to find them.

I also see plenty of girls getting jealous and insisting on monogamy. In gor.  But for me, and I speak only for myself here, is the defining difference is roleplayers have a boundary where they will stop and lifestylers don't, and that is where the problem starts.

I don't believe it has anything to do with being a lifestyler.  There are plenty of lonely people who hope to find someone in SL.  Some go about it in the right way and others go about it the wrong way.  I have no clue what that has to do with subscribing to some of the gorean philosophies and applying those to your RL.  The first clue they are not a gorean lifestyler should be if they haven't read a book.  How can you subscribe to philosophies you know nothing about?  Also a heads up...that philosophy often doesn't include monogamy.   What I see being described is your garden variety BF/GF relationship.  I find far more of that in SL Gor than anything else and the associated drama and inability to separate IC/OOC in a way that is more significant than calling someone Master or Mistress.

Based on the criteria I see here most of SL are lifestylers.

[Dren Bernard]

There is safety in knowing in which camp you and or others belong.

But it is a false safety and does not further this discussion.
I have been called a true lifestyler in admiration and in disgust and a true role player in admiration and in disgust.
In the end the only thing that matters if you like where and with whom you are RPing and you do no major harm at an OOC level.

I care less about rude, aggressive and insouciant people of all sort of convictions.
I know lifestylers who insist on silly OOC submission.
I know role players that have taken the role play where the impact was too damaging to the opposite typist.

I know people of all convictions who have swindled in OOC/RL love or money.

There is no safety in declaring which camp you are in; there are morons and valuable people in either group.

I refuse to carry but my own banner. I wish you all the same.

[Nigaltwaddlesworthiii]

There is safety in knowing in which camp you and or others belong.

But it is a false safety and does not further this discussion.
I have been called a true lifestyler in admiration and in disgust and a true role player in admiration and in disgust.
In the end the only thing that matters if you like where and with whom you are RPing and you do no major harm at an OOC level.

I care less about rude, aggressive and insouciant people of all sort of convictions.
I know lifestylers who insist on silly OOC submission.
I know role players that have taken the role play where the impact was too damaging to the opposite typist.

I know people of all convictions who have swindled in OOC/RL love or money.

There is no safety in declaring which camp you are in; there are morons and valuable people in either group.

I refuse to carry but my own banner. I wish you all the same.

STAMP that.. well said.. The OP was about treating people as equal adults deserving of some human respect on an OOC level.. I really don't see any argument that can be made against that.. most of us can come up with examples of different ways that we ALL have felt slighted at some point or another..

We wouldn't even be having this discussion.. it would be a no brainer.. if it didn't somehow devolve into a debate about the rights of lifestylers to stay Gorean all the time.. and the rights of Non Lifestylers to be OOC ..

[Poisonous Adored]

Secondlife is the virtual world where they can make their lifestyle a 'reality'.
Having a slave acting like a bitch in-world, even if its groupchat and ooc, is just as offensive to them as a Free talking down to a slave roleplayer OOCly to you.
I'm really tired of roleplayers complaining about lifestylers. I would also be tired of lifestylers complaining about roleplayers, if it weren't for the fact that its rare to hear such complaints because lifestylers tend not to go on forums.
Instead of trumpeting one side over the other, maybe realize people have Gor in different ways using the secondlife medium, and their way is just as valid as yours. Maybe you should have identified to him first and foremost that you were a roleplayer before any sort of interaction, and him identifying himself as a lifestyler. Then you guys can happily avoid each other.

I don't mind lifestylers at all. They want to have their places and groups where they are always IC and their gorean persona? I don't have a problem with that. I would never go to a lifestyle sim and then complain that I have to stay IC all the time. If those are the rules of the sim - I will either stick to their rules or I will not go there. If they open groups where it is clear there is no OOC? I don't have a problem with that at all. If that is not for me - I would simply not join such a group.

The same has to be true for lifestylers! If they do not want to interact with people on an equal basis - they should not go to sims where that is expected and where that is the norm. If they do not want people to be OOC in group chat. They can choose not to join such groups.

See - same right for everyone!

Honestly - lets say everyone believes they have this right to stay IC and to be their character when interacting with others - and everyone else has to conform to their wishes. So I have to jump in vampire mode one moment, furry mode the next, them some domme goddess comes my way and I have somehow accomodate her wish to be a goddess full time? Kind of silly, isn't it?

That, totally that! 200% agree!!

Regarding lifestylers, many of the ones I saw in RL, in the BDSM community, didnt read a book (especially slaves). There are a lot of resources in the web at their disposal, they are often taught by other lifestylers.
The SLifestylers I met in SL, I dont have any clue about the book reading.

But in SL, I met two sorts of lifestylers: The ones who live their lifestyle in RL, usually in a mix of Gorean philosophy and BDSM (I call them, the RLifestylers), and the ones adhering totally to the Gorean philosophy, convinced to be themselves in their soul and heart, Gorean (like the first category), but unable to live in RL this philosophy for familial reasons, usually (so, the SLifestylers).
Both blur the lines, some are respectful of others, some (rather the second category) are asses, sometimes, totally ridiculous (I saw recently the profile of a guy who was so proud of his virtual kajirae, that he put in his profile, pics of their naked body (without face). Pathetic.

But else, that Junea said, exactly.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

There is safety in knowing in which camp you and or others belong.

But it is a false safety and does not further this discussion.
I have been called a true lifestyler in admiration and in disgust and a true role player in admiration and in disgust.
In the end the only thing that matters if you like where and with whom you are RPing and you do no major harm at an OOC level.

I care less about rude, aggressive and insouciant people of all sort of convictions.
I know lifestylers who insist on silly OOC submission.
I know role players that have taken the role play where the impact was too damaging to the opposite typist.

I know people of all convictions who have swindled in OOC/RL love or money.

There is no safety in declaring which camp you are in; there are morons and valuable people in either group.

I refuse to carry but my own banner. I wish you all the same.

You are such a lifestyler.   
New tag line. 

[Violetta Daviau]

... I have no clue what that has to do with subscribing to some of the gorean philosophies and applying those to your RL.  The first clue they are not a gorean lifestyler should be if they haven't read a book.  How can you subscribe to philosophies you know nothing about? ...

Just a little less serious meant comment on the side: Also amongst lifestylers you find BTB and GE people - and they suffer from on...offlinisms for sure

[Osorkon Resident]

Okay so I was sat eating breakfast and reading the various group IM's that popped up on screen and one that caught my attention was this Gorean Support Group where a girl who roleplays a slave basically back-chatted a guy who plays a FM in Gor. Bare in mind this was a -OOC group chat- ... anyway, this girl was then linch mobbed by various Free in the group as well as other players who play slaves, demanding the girl apologised and showed the respect due to a FM. Hummm.. from what I gather, as far as OOC is concerned, respect is earned - its not demanded.

Agreed! Slaves, Free Women, Warriors, Ubars, Admins etc. are all equals when they‘re dealing with each other Out of Character. Moderators are also acting OOC, no matter who they play IC. There shouldn‘t be a need to make this clear, but sometimes it‘s necessary to emphasize it, when people mingle IC and OOC.

Everything else that is agreed between individuals Out of Character is their business, as long as it‘s consentual.

I wished there were a greater understanding and cooperation amongst players OOC, particularly when they‘re IC enemies, to create storylines and sort out RP issues on a rational basis. All we can do is, to continue this effort to build up Gor to make us more attractive for those who might consider joining us.

But if so many slaves didnt behave OOC as they behave IC, addressing people in OOC, with master mistress titles, the mentalities would evolve.

When so many slaves continue to behave like slaves, to act as if they were of an inferior status, in OOC, so, people are used to think that the majority of slaves are real submissives before to be role players and want to be treated like slaves even OOC. Probably some dudes anyway, need for their ego, due to their poor little life when they are nothing and crawl at their boss or wife's feet, to be still treated by all slaves as if they were masters, in an out of character context and there are little chance that they evolve.

I also agree with this, but I think that it may sometimes just be a habit to address an IC Master with „Master“ OOC, without the intention to demonstrate submissiveness OOC. Many slaves address me with Master in IM and I might respond „greetings slave“ but this doesn‘t keep me from treating them like equals OOC. I find myself sometimes addressing other people (e.g. Ubar, Magistrate, Commander) with their IC titles in IM but this doesn‘t mean that I consider them as my superiors OOC 
None of us can claim that he‘s infallible, but it can be expected from everyone to show respect towards others OOC, and adjust their behaviour if necessary. Period.

[Delaynie Barbosa]

But if so many slaves didnt behave OOC as they behave IC, addressing people in OOC, with master mistress titles, the mentalities would evolve.

When so many slaves continue to behave like slaves, to act as if they were of an inferior status, in OOC, so, people are used to think that the majority of slaves are real submissives before to be role players and want to be treated like slaves even OOC. Probably some dudes anyway, need for their ego, due to their poor little life when they are nothing and crawl at their boss or wife's feet, to be still treated by all slaves as if they were masters, in an out of character context and there are little chance that they evolve.

I also agree with this, but I think that it may sometimes just be a habit to address an IC Master with „Master“ OOC, without the intention to demonstrate submissiveness OOC. Many slaves address me with Master in IM and I might respond „greetings slave“ but this doesn‘t keep me from treating them like equals OOC. I find myself sometimes addressing other people (e.g. Ubar, Magistrate, Commander) with their IC titles in IM but this doesn‘t mean that I consider them as my superiors OOC 
None of us can claim that he‘s infallible, but it can be expected from everyone to show respect towards others OOC, and adjust their behaviour if necessary. Period.

I want to point out too, how easy it is to fall into a behavior set that appears submissive. It may be or may not be actually submissive, ; much of the time the respect you see from slaves OOC is a habit from the harrasment you get when you don't do it. For example, I was given a set of a city's kennel rules yesterday by a friend on another sim. There were OOC rules on it, such as having to beg to go off sim and out of Gor, to report to the slave group when you log on and when you might be back. I had talked to those slavers before and when I asked to leave, twice, I was ignored so I just excused myself.  Why should they care if I want to leave, I'm just a slave, so go ahead and ignore me.  That must be what they think, since they think it's okay to keep track of roleplay slaves when they aren't roleplaying *snickers.*  Outdated thinking, but as a slave character you are sometimes forced to adjust or flat out be shunned.  It's a wrong attitude, and an old one, but you can't fix stupid.

[Jamsine Resident]

I have come to see that many "Masters/Jarls" expect all women, slave or not slave to address them as such in IM. Several time I have had IMS where I was talked down too, or made feel inferior because I chose not to be a slave. They felt that all women should be on. No matter what. "IT is just what I am", "It's just how it should be..". Excuse my lang.but bull shit. Not everyone woman is submissive. They may act it in game. But that does not mean they are irl. Or want to be. Even in game some don't want to be. They have endless hours of conversation of parties trying to sway them of what they are or aren't. Just let the person do what they want. Keep it all ic and stop trying to be little the person.

[luce]

I have come to see that many "Masters/Jarls" expect all women, slave or not slave to address them as such in IM. Several time I have had IMS where I was talked down too, or made feel inferior because I chose not to be a slave. They felt that all women should be on. No matter what. "IT is just what I am", "It's just how it should be..". Excuse my lang.but bull shit. Not everyone woman is submissive. They may act it in game. But that does not mean they are irl. Or want to be. Even in game some don't want to be. They have endless hours of conversation of parties trying to sway them of what they are or aren't. Just let the person do what they want. Keep it all ic and stop trying to be little the person.

*raises her eyebrow... the dreaded control in the IM box you got to love it....  i had a good one the other day, my rp master at the time told me to get out of IM with other men.... thats my business OOC surely..dont cross the line

[Jamsine Resident]

I have come to see that many "Masters/Jarls" expect all women, slave or not slave to address them as such in IM. Several time I have had IMS where I was talked down too, or made feel inferior because I chose not to be a slave. They felt that all women should be on. No matter what. "IT is just what I am", "It's just how it should be..". Excuse my lang.but bull shit. Not everyone woman is submissive. They may act it in game. But that does not mean they are irl. Or want to be. Even in game some don't want to be. They have endless hours of conversation of parties trying to sway them of what they are or aren't. Just let the person do what they want. Keep it all ic and stop trying to be little the person.

*raises her eyebrow... the dreaded control in the IM box you got to love it....  i had a good one the other day, my rp master at the time told me to get out of IM with other men.... thats my business OOC surely..dont cross the line

Oh I mean I don't mind the OOC that goes on sometimes in IM. I mean hell they used to be called naughty boxes. So it's fine, but don't try and make me cross the line. What I chose to so is for me, and not for you. IF I play with you that way, then I do. But don't try and force the issue every time, and try and make comments on a point proven.

[Meredith Topaz]

The same can be said for those that roleplay slaves.  It gets a bit tiring to hear all the moaning that there are too many slaves or sluts around.  OOC respect is a two way street.