Slave healing

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Kail Lefevre]

I wanted to address this and see what most others think. I know more then a couple people that are slaves that used to be physicians, or had some sort of healing training. They even practice this healing in a pinch. Is it right? I don't believe so, I'll tell ya why with an example.

In Turmus I came to the old dock and found a warrior out cold, face down in the snow, bleeding to death. I dragged him back to the village I live in and pulled him to the infirmary. I checked the arrow wounds for left over arrow heads and shafts, check the arrow head to be sure it was not barbed, and then removed the arrows and dressed them to stop the bleeding. I then finished undressing him and getting covers over him to help stave off hypothermia. I even commanded a slave to strip and lay with him. I did nothing else, because even though as I have an alt that is a physician I knew just what to do to save him, I am playing a warrior and I felt I was at the limit of what I a warrior would know.

I sent another girl to run off to find a physician and ask them to the village. When no help was to be found. and I had changed the dressing again, I left the slave in the bed with the man and ran off to look for my self. When I got back, still empty handed ( no physician still) I found a slave stitching up the mans wounds. I chased off the girl and told her if she ever did it again I would find a spike with her name on it. I was harsh on her to be sure. I don't think I was out of bounds, and later when I learned she took it personally I contacted her owner to explain and asked them to pass on my words to explain and that I in truth did not mean it personally.

Here was my thinking and reasons.

I know from reading the books my self that it was forbidden for a slave to teach the free. That teaching some one places the student in the dept of the teacher. That because a free can not be indebted to a slave, it is wrong for a slave to do some thing that would create that debt. i.e. Teaching them.

Now, saving some one is huge. If a man saves a woman, she is then in dept to the man, as is her family. The family, to repay this dept will give the man the woman he saved to settle this dept.

If saving some one creates dept, and some thing even as simple as teaching creates dept, and slaves are forbidden to place a free in their dept, then following this train of thought, had I allowed the slave to continue to stitch the warrior up and slaved his life it would of placed him in dept.

Now, while maybe you agree with this train of thinking or maybe you do not. One thing is for sure though, 100% concrete. I told one slave to lay with the warrior. Then, 10 minutes later another slave told her to move. That one slave thought she had the right to order another slave to stop doing some thing I commanded. Then that slave felt it was okay to obey the other slave over what I said to do. 

So what do you think?

[Garrgon Resident]

My personal opinion is that a slave wouldn't perform caste work. Even if she once was a physician and in the caste, once she's enslaved she no longer has that caste. Her past training is moot.  I could see a slave performing basic first aid or medic work if it's a dire emergency. I don't think there's a problem with a slave wrapping a wound, applying pressure to stop the bleeding..that sort of thing. But in the case you mention, no. She shouldn't have taken over the healing even if there is no physician present.

Roleplaying an injury doesn't have to mean that the patient will die if they don't get immediate attention. In a city, there would be a physician present but because of varying log in times and RL keeping rp'ers out, we don't have that in SL Gor. So the man with the arrow wound could have easily NPC'd a physician, or just "fell asleep" until a physician RPer arrived. A slave putting pressure on the wound or wrapping it tightly could have been enough for him to live until a physician saw him.

As for the girl that took a slaves orders over a Frees, switch her, hobble her with a thong around the ankles for a day or two, shave her head, cage her without food or water for 24 hours, or make her wear a degrading "I ignore a Frees command" sign for a day or two. 

[Dren Bernard]

Kail, as the Healing Kajra Bounty Hunter from way back, I think you're right but that shouldn't surprise anyone.
Most HKs I think imagine themselves to be like earth's nurses; submississive, caring and prepared to do anything that needs doing.
Well that is wrong, even for earth's nurses, trust me .

I won't repeat my stance here but kindly read Gorean medical role play and Santa Claus
if interested: http://www.gor-sl.com/index.php/topic,10357.0.html

[Garrgon Resident]

Kail, as the Healing Kajra Bounty Hunter from way back, I think you're right but that shouldn't surprise anyone.
Most HKs I think imagine themselves to be like earth's nurses; submississive, caring and prepared to do anything that needs doing.
Well that is wrong, even for earth's nurses, trust me .

I won't repeat my stance here but kindly read Gorean medical role play and Santa Claus
if interested: http://www.gor-sl.com/index.php/topic,10357.0.html

Ack. Nurse and Submissive should never be in the same thought. My mother is a nurse.

* Garrgon Resident goes to disinfect my brain now...

[ramond lax]

I was just recently Treated for an Arrow wound by a Slave.  There were no Physicians on the sim, and to be honest, I questioned the RP for a moment when a slave was called, but I chose to tell the story, rather than let the limitations overrule the plausibility. 

In the question of Debt... I don't think i owe the slave who treated me anything.  If she had been commanded to fetch me a paga, i wouldn't owe fer for that.  If she had been ordered to darn my socks, I wouldn't owe her for that.  She was commanded to treat my wound... she Opeyed.  Her Master has my gratitude. 

[Poisonous Adored]

I don't think I was out of bounds, and later when I learned she took it personally I contacted her owner to explain and asked them to pass on my words to explain and that I in truth did not mean it personally.

Mmmmh, IC, who cares if a slave takes something personally? So I presume, by "she took it personally", you mean, on an OOC level? If yes, I dont understand why you contacted the owners....

[Delaynie Barbosa]

My personal opinion is that a slave wouldn't perform caste work. Even if she once was a physician and in the caste, once she's enslaved she no longer has that caste. Her past training is moot.  I could see a slave performing basic first aid or medic work if it's a dire emergency. I don't think there's a problem with a slave wrapping a wound, applying pressure to stop the bleeding..that sort of thing. But in the case you mention, no. She shouldn't have taken over the healing even if there is no physician present.

Roleplaying an injury doesn't have to mean that the patient will die if they don't get immediate attention. In a city, there would be a physician present but because of varying log in times and RL keeping rp'ers out, we don't have that in SL Gor. So the man with the arrow wound could have easily NPC'd a physician, or just "fell asleep" until a physician RPer arrived. A slave putting pressure on the wound or wrapping it tightly could have been enough for him to live until a physician saw him.

As for the girl that took a slaves orders over a Frees, switch her, hobble her with a thong around the ankles for a day or two, shave her head, cage her without food or water for 24 hours, or make her wear a degrading "I ignore a Frees command" sign for a day or two. 

Delaynie Barbosa gets a turn to say, "THIS" and leave it at that!

[Kail Lefevre]

@ Poisonous Adored .... Yes, it was ooc. The reason I took the route I did by contacting the owner was because of how I learned of the issue. I was speaking to my group - co owner about that owner moving to our sim. I was informed that there might be an issue with that since her slave felt rather strongly insulted just for trying to help. I knew the owner, and as the girl was a slave I had not even bothered to remember the girls name. I guess I could of asked the owner for her name and contacted her my self. I am, however, as a point of fact, remarkably lazy and just told her owner why so she could straighten her slave out her self.

@ramond lax ....

In the question of Debt... I don't think i owe the slave who treated me anything.  If she had been commanded to fetch me a paga, i wouldn't owe fer for that.  If she had been ordered to darn my socks, I wouldn't owe her for that.  She was commanded to treat my wound... she Opeyed.  Her Master has my gratitude. 

A quote from Tarnsman of Gor...

One
of the first lessons I was taught on Gor was that concern for a
slave was out of place. I decided to wait. I did learn, casually
from a Scribe, not Torm, that slaves were not permitted to
impart instruction to a free man, since it would place him in
their debt, and nothing was owed to a slave. If it was in my
power, I resolved to do what I could to abolish what seemed
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to me a degrading condition. I once talked to my father about
the matter, and he merely said that there were many things
on Gor worse

Now I agree... Getting your paga, fetching your slippers, putting on your socks, or what ever small meanless task you order her to do is just that. A small meaningless task. How can imparting instructions, e.g. teaching, place you in the slaves dept but saving you from death is just an "eh" moment. Do you really count slaving your life as such a small manner?

I will say this though. If a physician says to a slave, " take this cloth and hold it to the wound" or gives some other command that in the end saves your life, that is just her following orders. In my example, the man was freezing from having been out in the snow for a while. I ordered her to lay with him. The act of her laying with him saved him, but in this case she was a tool I was using to keep him warm. I could of just as easily of piled 24 furs on top of him to get the same effect. Again, I am lazy though so I used the slave to keep him warm.

A slave taking it upon her self to heal a man that can not speak for him self, who is saved because of her actions and no one else.... Well, if I was ever saved in real life I would feel pretty indebted to my savior. I can't see why I would feel any differently in Gor. Unless I was a man and suddenly learned that the person I owed was a slave. Then I would feel pretty ashamed.

And yet it was not a strange thing, particularly not on Gor,
where bravery is highly esteemed and to save a female’s life
is in effect to win title to it, for it is the option of a Gorean
male to enslave any woman whose life he has saved, a right
which is seldom denied even by the citizens of the girl’s city
or her family. Indeed, there have been cases in which a girl’s
brothers have had her clad as a slave, bound in slave
bracelets, and handed over to her rescuer, in order that the
honor of the family and her city not be besmirched. There is,
of course, a natural tendency in the rescued female to feel
and demonstrate great gratitude to the man who has saved
her life, and the Gorean custom is perhaps no more than an
institutionalization of this customary response. There are
cases where a free woman in the vicinity of a man she
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desired has deliberately placed herself in jeopardy. The man
then, after having been forced to risk his life, is seldom in a
mood to use the girl other than as his slave. I have wondered
upon occasion about this practice, so different on Gor than on
Earth. On my old world when a woman is saved by a man she
may, I understand, with propriety bestow upon him a grateful
kiss and perhaps, if we may believe the tales in these
matters, consider him more seriously because of his action as
a possible, eventual companion in wedlock. One of these girls,
if rescued on Gor, would probably be dumbfounded at what
would happen to her. After her kiss of gratitude, which might
last a good deal longer than she had anticipated, she would
find herself forced to kneel and be collared and then,
stripped, her wrists confined behind her back in slave
bracelets, she would find herself led stumbling away on a
slave leash from the field of her champion’s valor. Yes,
undoubtedly our Earth girls would find this most surprising.
On the other hand the Gorean attitude is that she would be
dead were it not for his brave action and thus it is his right,
now that he has won her life, to make her live it for him
precisely as he pleases, which is usually, it must
unfortunately be noted, as his slave girl, for the privileges of
a Free Companionship are never bestowed lightly. Also of
course a Free Companionship might be refused, in all Gorean
right, by the girl, and thus a warrior can hardly be blamed,
after risking his life, for not wanting to risk losing the precious
prize which he has just, at great peril to himself, succeeded in
winning. The Gorean man, as a man, cheerfully and dutifully
attends to the rescuing of his female in distress, but as a
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Gorean, as a true Gorean, he feels, perhaps justifiably and
being somewhat less or more romantic than ourselves, that
he should have something more for his pains than her kiss of
gratitude and so, in typical Gorean fashion, puts his chain on
the wench, claiming both her and her body as his payment.

While this applies to women being saved by men, I find it hard to imagine that the saving of any ones life, being saved, could honestly be compared to getting my paga.

[Violetta Daviau]

My personal opinion is that a slave wouldn't perform caste work. Even if she once was a physician and in the caste, once she's enslaved she no longer has that caste. Her past training is moot.  ...

Surely I do not wish to attack your personal opinion. But I beg to differ with the term "moot". Legally seen, culturally seen, what people would expect, is surely that a slave, former head physician of whereever, will not be allowed to heal a wound anymore, for various reasons (a free not wanting to owe his life to a slave? Whatever!), but if we learn one thing in the books, especially about slaves that are represented so ultra prominent in the books, it is that the books consist of a huge pile of exceptions.

So if there is a physician present, the physician will do the work. Or the free nurses / physician adepts. No question.
But if there is no physician or free healer about, not even a warrior for first aid or field medic, then there are several options:
1) The wound is of low criticality, the patient is forebrought into a nearby village where there might be a physician present
2) The physician is being NPC'ed
3) The slave with her appropriate training just steps up and heals, saves a life. Period. She may be beaten for it, slain even, she may gain her freedom or even be freed&companioned

Slaves have stood up for various "uncommon" things in the books in the end. And - returning to a possible interpretation of the used word "moot" - she will not get the healing knowledge wiped out of her brain just by the collar and the brand. Such knowledge decays over time, months, years, if not used, practically or theoretically. And until then, a warrior might - if valueing his life by chance so much that he fears the loss when actually faced the danger to lose it - secretly wish for her to safe him, and buy her later, make her a high girl, bring her together with her true love master, free her, whatever really.

[Garrgon Resident]

Surely I do not wish to attack your personal opinion. But I beg to differ with the term "moot". Legally seen, culturally seen, what people would expect, is surely that a slave, former head physician of whereever, will not be allowed to heal a wound anymore, for various reasons (a free not wanting to owe his life to a slave? Whatever!), but if we learn one thing in the books, especially about slaves that are represented so ultra prominent in the books, it is that the books consist of a huge pile of exceptions.

There's always exceptions to everything. I was really speaking generally. Plus, there are too many in SL that want to play the exception. They read about this one person that did this one thing that most people in that role didn't do and so they want to play that out. That's not necessarily wrong, until Gor is inundated with "exception" roleplayers.

So if there is a physician present, the physician will do the work. Or the free nurses / physician adepts. No question.
But if there is no physician or free healer about, not even a warrior for first aid or field medic, then there are several options:
1) The wound is of low criticality, the patient is forebrought into a nearby village where there might be a physician present
2) The physician is being NPC'ed
3) The slave with her appropriate training just steps up and heals, saves a life. Period. She may be beaten for it, slain even, she may gain her freedom or even be freed&companioned

Or, they give allowance for the fact that if they were -really- in a city (as opposed to rp'ing being in one), there would be a physician there and just pause the rp until someone playing one logs in. They can do that by falling asleep, having someone wrap the wound, applying pressure, putting an ice pack on his head, yada yada. It won't be anything that would stabilize a person in rl, but in rl if you're wounded and rush to the hospital, you don't have to wait for a Doctor to log in.

Slaves have stood up for various "uncommon" things in the books in the end. And - returning to a possible interpretation of the used word "moot" - she will not get the healing knowledge wiped out of her brain just by the collar and the brand. Such knowledge decays over time, months, years, if not used, practically or theoretically. And until then, a warrior might - if valueing his life by chance so much that he fears the loss when actually faced the danger to lose it - secretly wish for her to safe him, and buy her later, make her a high girl, bring her together with her true love master, free her, whatever really.

I never suggested that she suddenly forgets her training when the collar is placed on her neck. I only said that I personally don't think that a slave (in general) would practice caste work, even if she was in that caste as a free woman.

In Clearchus, we had a girl that was rp'ing being a newly collared slave due to a debt she owed. Her backstory was that she was a physician before her arrival in Clearchus and before her enslavement. There was a scene when she saw a warrior attempting to heal someone and, still thinking like a free woman, spoke up against it, declaring that he'd likely kill the woman he was tending to if he continued. That was her "exception to the rule" rp and it made sense.

After that episode, she was made an infirmary slave, tending to the Physicians needs and able to do basic first aid and medical care in the absence of any physicians. That was, I think, due in part to her backstory of having been in the physicians caste before her enslavement. This kind of rp, I agree with.

I'd have no problem with a slave roleplayer playing out the exception and doing something out of normal for the general slave population -so long as- she's willing to face the consequences for it. This slave got upset OOCly for being reprimanded IC. That's not okay and that shows that she was not trying to roleplay the exception.

BTW: I've never seen you as attacking anything I've said, so no worries. You're entitled to your opinion and I like reading the different points of view

[Poisonous Adored]

@ Poisonous Adored .... Yes, it was ooc. The reason I took the route I did by contacting the owner was because of how I learned of the issue. I was speaking to my group - co owner about that owner moving to our sim. I was informed that there might be an issue with that since her slave felt rather strongly insulted just for trying to help. I knew the owner, and as the girl was a slave I had not even bothered to remember the girls name. I guess I could of asked the owner for her name and contacted her my self. I am, however, as a point of fact, remarkably lazy and just told her owner why so she could straighten her slave out her self.

Well, IC owners are not the father or mother of the typist behind the IC slave, what.....

[Kaitlin Eiren]

I'll accept kajira healers when I see "scribe classes" for slaves and one gets up and performs an FC or presides over a trial when there is no scribe around.

I'll accept kajira healers when I see them strap on a sword and go answer the city gate when no Warriors are around.

I'll accept kajira healers when I see the metal worker hand over his branding iron to his slave to man the shop while he is gone.

In this genre it is ridiculous to think that a slave irregardless of her caste before she became a slave would be healing.  What makes this even funnier is that even if you buy into the often stated exception of them being a physician as a FW before being enslaved 99% of the time the healing slave is a barbarian slave or was never a physician even in their back-story.  

The entire reason there is an example of a "scribe slave" owned by Tarl/Bosk is to highlight how ridiculous the notion is and also how other goreans would react despite their competence.

[Kail Lefevre]

I like the idea of an npc healer in a city. After all you should never lack for want of one in a city.

[Caranda Schreiner]

I did learn, casually from a Scribe, not Torm, that slaves were not permitted to impart instruction to a free man, since it would place him in their debt, and nothing was owed to a slave.

I always thought that this was a rather dubious idea that JN dreamed up in the first book and then promptly ignored.  First because it makes no sense when you consider how Goreans think.  If a slave imparts some instruction to a free man then if the free man is indebted to anyone it is the slave's owner, not the slave.  Just as if you buy something from a slave running a stall in the street, you haven't bought anything from that slave you have bought it from the slave's owner.  Taken to its logical extent on this view a slave wouldn't be able to do anything for a free person, not just teaching, because that would place the free person in the slave'd debt.

Secondly because there are examples in the books of slaves functioning as nannies and governesses for free children:

In a family house, of course, girls are almost always modestly garbed. Children of many houses might be startled if they could see the transformation which takes place in their pretty Didi or Lale, whom they know as their nurse, governess and playmate, when she is, in their absence or after their bedtime, ordered to the chamber of one of the young masters, there to dance lasciviously before him, and then to be had, and as a slave.

Are those slaves forbidden to answer questions from the children in their charge?  Are they just supposed to sit there mute if a child asks what the name of a flower is?

We also know that there are slaves with specialist expertise, in the course of a lengthy discussion about slave prices JN writes:

I have not mentioned either, slaves with professional competencies, such as medicine or law, or fighting slaves, in effect gladiators, men purchased for use as bodyguards or combatants in arranged games.

Which indicates not only that slaves can have such skills but that they cost more because of them.  Why would you pay more for a slave with a professional competence such as medicine if it was not to be used?

That doesn't mean I agree with the current rash of "healing kajira" running around with their dinky little green outfits and bag of herbal remedies though!

[Tertionus]

If my character was gravely injured (ie: unconscious), and a slave healed him, he'd likely be grateful (even if he wouldn't show it).

If my character was injured but conscious and no healer was available, I'd NPC a healer.

If I had an issue with the player of a slave character, I'd let her/him know.

If someone contacted me about my character's IC slave, I'd laugh at them. A lot. Then again, I'd laugh at her for being upset about role play, too.

It is inconceivable that a slave would carry out routine caste work.

It is inconceivable that a slave with healing knowledge would kneel pretty while a free person dies.

Common sense. It's underrated.