Do A Slave have Such Power

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Mil McMillan]

Well, as  a newby on this forum, thought this was a very intresting subject.

Often when there occur problems between a free and slave, that would result in things like banning, they are not about RP
I can not imagine that someone, who is a kajira on SL Gor will not accept a free to eg to punish her/him.

On the other hand, how often have we seen that people, calling themselves Master/Mistress can not control themselves and treat slaves as if they were ....... worse then sleen.  Well sorry they are not. They are slaves and a slave is not "something" you treat badly.
This bad treatments could result in OOC issues (banning) and it would be not inapropriate, even if the sim owner was a slave.


Second subject : slaves owning things
Not long ago, i had a talk with someone who is well familiar with Gor and sl Gor and he said to me, he didnt even allow his slave to have money on her account.   Well mine has shops, BUT this never gets into our RP.
I could not imagine that she should give me all the money, she earns.
Lets face it, though it is fun and though some Gorean Values are valuable in rl, Gor is a imaginitive world.
My slave girl, can perfectly RP in her role, even if she owns money.  I will just never allow her to use it ic.

[Chelle Noel]

I understand what BellaW is saying and agree strongly with Madras.  It is a matter of seperating IC and OOC with regard to admin  and roles.  I own a sim- it is Gorean.  I still am able to engage in Rp within my role without stepping out what is expected of me.  I have never had anyone challenge my position as Admin or slave when acting as both (except for a jealous "slave" who is now an ex-friend).  I feel that as a slave one can be engaging, intelligent, articulate and fair and still not compromise her/his RP when dealing with admin matters.  But just as BellaW mentioned, I too have seen power plays by slaves who own sims, even if not directly.  The "slave" mentioned above is an example where she appointed and gave her "Master" admin rights, whereupon she acted out her agressions via him in guiding his decision-making.  tsk tsk...Shame on both of them!

As far as owning property, valuables, etc.  We need to remember that this is still just a RP game, to deny yourself these things outside of RP should not even enter the equation unless of course this is something one wishes to impose upon themselves or allow.  This being said, however, what is mutually agreed upon between a Master/Mistress and a slave is their business and is not to be challenged by anyone with differing views. 

I would also like to comment on Master Mil's observation on how some Free treat slaves.  I understand that slaves are low ranking on the values list and are to be regarded as animals or property, but I also believe that anything a Free owns is of value or he/she would not own it.  How many here deliberately torment their own pets... or deface their neighbor's property?  There is something to be said of value particularly from a subjective viewpoint.  Each person has a different value system, yet why would anyone devalue another's property?  The premise of Gor, outside of gender roles, is about an honor system that goes beyond what is typicaly found on earth.  Is it Gorean to disrespect another's goods with disregard (unless involved in a storyline)?  Where is honor in this and does it not insult and dishonor the owner?  I have trouble with this concept...

[Ixiyen Luik]

I would also like to comment on Master Mil's observation on how some Free treat slaves.  I understand that slaves are low ranking on the values list and are to be regarded as animals or property, but I also believe that anything a Free owns is of value or he/she would not own it.  How many here deliberately torment their own pets... or deface their neighbor's property?  There is something to be said of value particularly from a subjective viewpoint.  Each person has a different value system, yet why would anyone devalue another's property?  The premise of Gor, outside of gender roles, is about an honor system that goes beyond what is typicaly found on earth.  Is it Gorean to disrespect another's goods with disregard (unless involved in a storyline)?  Where is honor in this and does it not insult and dishonor the owner?  I have trouble with this concept...

I agree. Madras has pinned it.

However, your above point I find I have a comment for.

Having value, is not the same as having rights. I own a very expensive guitar. That guitar has no implicit rights of its own. it is just an expensive thing, that I own. It doesnt matter if I have a cheap guitar, or an expensive one. I am responsible for it, and its wellbeing. If I leave it in a public place unattended and it gets stolen/defaced or damaged, thats my problem.

Cruelty was largely absent from Gor. And slaves, are simply animals. As far as most goreans are concerned. And to take it to its nasty extension. If your dog doesnt learn, you spank it and teach it. Eventually the lesson sticks. Having said that. If a dog of one of my friends attacked me, I would react appropriately.

Fundamental to understanding the Gorean mindset regarding slaves are several concepts.. These are my personal opinion and also, how I see most goreans being, in terms of how Norman wrote them. apologies for repetition.

Goreans take responsibility seriously. They are aware of their actions and will stand up for them once made.

Goreans view slaves as property. A chair, is yours to do with as you please. You break my chair, I expect to be compensated.

Goreans have strong moral fibre. They are the sort of people who will return lost money and send runaway slaves back to their masters for punishment.


These points are important because they give clues as to how goreans will react to slaves in circumstances.

I do feel youre simplifying Gor in alot of ways, by only considering the Honour system that is prevalent on Gor - in some ways yes, it is dishonourable to cruelly subjugate slaves. It contravenes the fact that cruelty is NOT prevalent on Gor.

However. Over and above this is a persons -right- to choose. I can choose to be honourable. I can choose NOT to be honourable. Each has its consequences, and as a Gorean male, I would have to face up to those consequences.

[Chelle Noel]

I agree. Madras has pinned it.

However, your above point I find I have a comment for.

Having value, is not the same as having rights. I own a very expensive guitar. That guitar has no implicit rights of its own. it is just an expensive thing, that I own. It doesnt matter if I have a cheap guitar, or an expensive one. I am responsible for it, and its wellbeing. If I leave it in a public place unattended and it gets stolen/defaced or damaged, thats my problem.

Cruelty was largely absent from Gor. And slaves, are simply animals. As far as most goreans are concerned. And to take it to its nasty extension. If your dog doesnt learn, you spank it and teach it. Eventually the lesson sticks. Having said that. If a dog of one of my friends attacked me, I would react appropriately.

Fundamental to understanding the Gorean mindset regarding slaves are several concepts.. These are my personal opinion and also, how I see most goreans being, in terms of how Norman wrote them. apologies for repetition.

Goreans take responsibility seriously. They are aware of their actions and will stand up for them once made.

Goreans view slaves as property. A chair, is yours to do with as you please. You break my chair, I expect to be compensated.

Goreans have strong moral fibre. They are the sort of people who will return lost money and send runaway slaves back to their masters for punishment.


These points are important because they give clues as to how goreans will react to slaves in circumstances.

I do feel youre simplifying Gor in alot of ways, by only considering the Honour system that is prevalent on Gor - in some ways yes, it is dishonourable to cruelly subjugate slaves. It contravenes the fact that cruelty is NOT prevalent on Gor.

However. Over and above this is a persons -right- to choose. I can choose to be honourable. I can choose NOT to be honourable. Each has its consequences, and as a Gorean male, I would have to face up to those consequences.

No where did I say a slave should have rights.  Any rights given should be those granted by his/her owner nor is it my intent to critique how owners handle their property. My owner is loving yet takes me to task for things he feels necessary as part of my discipline, training and his mastery of me.  I love him for this and accept that it is his love for me that makes him care enough to handle me as such.   As I am a lifetyler, I have been exposed too often to people who feel they can define the relationships of others and thus will not be found guilty of the same.  All this aside,  I believe that you may have misunderstood my comment in my application of "Honour" as a general condition of the Gorean lifestyle and for the purposes of this forum it was rather "simplified" but it has evoked commentary- which is a good thing!

I agree with your comments, Master, on Goreans' seriousness in being responsible, in their view of slaves as property and the moral fibre proclaimed. However, this is not typically the case as I have seen it in SL Gor, both as a slave and a Freewoman, with regards to treating another's property with total disregard of the value its owner places upon it.  Therefore your points which gives clues to how slave are to be regarded may hold true to Norman's books but not applicable, for the most part, in SL Gor from what I've witnessed and experienced. 

I also agree that anyone has a right to choose their actions, to be honourable or not, both slave or free, but where is the responsibility you speak of in taking such actions?  While you may be commended for being liable for your actions, others choose not to be.  This, I feel, is a result of Goreans not being held accountable or taking responsibility both on an interpersonal level and a community level in SL Gor.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments and expressions.

Respectfully,
ciele

[Ixiyen Luik]

No where did I say a slave should have rights.  Any rights given should be those granted by his/her owner nor is it my intent to critique how owners handle their property. My owner is loving yet takes me to task for things he feels necessary as part of my discipline, training and his mastery of me.  I love him for this and accept that it is his love for me that makes him care enough to handle me as such.   As I am a lifetyler, I have been exposed too often to people who feel they can define the relationships of others and thus will not be found guilty of the same.  All this aside,  I believe that you may have misunderstood my comment in my application of "Honour" as a general condition of the Gorean lifestyle and for the purposes of this forum it was rather "simplified" but it has evoked commentary- which is a good thing!

I agree with your comments, Master, on Goreans' seriousness in being responsible, in their view of slaves as property and the moral fibre proclaimed. However, this is not typically the case as I have seen it in SL Gor, both as a slave and a Freewoman, with regards to treating another's property with total disregard of the value its owner places upon it.  Therefore your points which gives clues to how slave are to be regarded may hold true to Norman's books but not applicable, for the most part, in SL Gor from what I've witnessed and experienced. 

I also agree that anyone has a right to choose their actions, to be honourable or not, both slave or free, but where is the responsibility you speak of in taking such actions?  While you may be commended for being liable for your actions, others choose not to be.  This, I feel, is a result of Goreans not being held accountable or taking responsibility both on an interpersonal level and a community level in SL Gor.

Thank you for your thoughtful comments and expressions.

Respectfully,
ciele

Ah. Im sorry, I should have my my points more explicit.

I realise you are not saying a slave should have rights. However, when I read your statement it read, (to me at least) as if you were arguing that: "I am a slave. I am worth (x) amount of money. Because I have this amount of value, surely I can be accorded importance."

What I tried clumsily to counter-argue, was that your worth to you master, makes not one jot of difference to the next man you see on the street. And if he chose arbitrarily to slag you off, publicaly humiliate you, draw his sword and kill you on the spot, all he would have to do, was compensate your master, for the money he lost in you.

If he did so, your master would have no gorean legal recourse to do -anything- as a slave is simply a piece of property.


As a case in point, let us suppose a member of the caste of builders had killed the slave of a Scribe.. He did so for his own reasons. Whatever they might be. The scribe comes to the builder and says "You killed my slave. She is was very valuable to me. You must repay me her worth. which is thirty silver tarns!"

The builder, must comply. He has destroyed an article of the scribes property. If he doesnt, the scribe might decide to take him to court, to force him to pay. In those precedings, the builder might be totally vindicated (the slave tried to kil him, for example.) at which point the scribe walks away without his money. however if the builder has unlawfully destroyed his property, then the man must pay the owner his due. Similarly if the builder had injured or maimed the slave. Then the scribe may stil take him to court, for damages incurred. And similarly, the matter will be heard.

"This man has branded my slave in the face, for lying and stealing! Her sale value is less now! I demand compensation!"

Did the slave lie and steal? If yes, the scrbe again, walks away penniless. and presumably thrashes his slave later. or turns her into a coin girl to earn his money back.


Later, you ask where the responsibility is, in willfully destroying another mans property, I have the only meagre answer I know: A goreans responsibilities in life are to his caste and his homestone. As long as he sees these responsibilities out correctly, he is the best of all Goreans.

how he deals with slaves, is not really an issue, for most goreans. THough obviously there are societal norms to conform to, he can deviate from them at any time, if he wishes to. moral  and ethical guidelines keep a culture going in the same direction. THey are not hard and fast rules of behaviour. As we can see with terrorists like the IRA, who fight, they believe, to free Ireland by persecuting innocent english people. Hardly in line with the Christian values most Irish people are were raised with.

I also concur, these points have little place in SL-gor. At which point one has to ask, is it gor at all.