Free women Hunting.... not gorean? says who?

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[BratCatz Lyon]

Allow me to show simply one of many passages from our history books... Beasts of Gor chapter 6:
I lay on my belly before the small pond, and, with the palm of my hand, lifted water to my mouth.
When I heard the sound of the tharlarion, some four or five of them, I rose to my feet.
"Have you see aught of a sport slave?" she asked.
"No," I said.
She was very lovely and attractive in her hunting costume, brief tunic and long hose, brown, a scarlet cape and cap, the cap with a feather. She carried a short, yellow bow, of Ka-la-na wood, which could clear the saddle of the tharlarion, its missile being easily released to either side. Her black boots, slick and shining, were spurred. A quiver of arrows, yellow, was at the left of her saddle.
"Thank you, Warrior," she said, and wheeled the light saddle tharlarion, its claws scattering pebbles by the side of the pond.
She was with four men, also on upright tharlarion. They followed her as she sped away.
She had had dark hair, dark eyes.
I did not envy the sport slave
****************************************************************************************************
[16:50]  Kylie Roff: Tal Sir
[16:50]  Kylie Roff: have you seen the tabuk, Sir??
[16:50]  Kylie Roff: I lost it
[16:50]  Sphere Proto grabs the woman by her hair and forces her onto her belly...
[16:51]  Gordan Pascal is Online
[16:51]  Kylie Roff: what are you doing!
[16:51]  Kylie Roff: let go of me!
[16:51]  Sphere Proto kneels with his knee onto the small of her back and takes a binding fiber to bind her wrists..
[16:52]  Kylie Roff: stop please! what are you doing! I am only out here looking for the tabuk I lost!
[16:52]  Kylie Roff: my Mother and I were out here earlier hunting them! Lady Lyon of Vosk Valley!
[16:52]  Sphere Proto wrappes the fiber around her wrists and knots them on every turn..
[16:53]  Sphere Proto ties it off with a Gorean knot and checks it to be secure
[16:53]  Sphere Proto keeps an eye on the women walking around the field..
[16:53]  Kylie Roff tries to pull from his grip, "stop this!!! that hurts!!! why are you doing this!!!"
[16:53]  Kylie Roff screams for help as loud as she can!
[16:54]  Kylie Roff shouts: let go of me!!!
[16:54]  Sphere Proto attaches a leash to the woman's neck and prepares to leave..
[16:54]  Sphere Proto draws his bow.

Ven returns home to find his daughter in disray.......

[11:18]  Revenge Sempati: Where were you when the man tied upi down?
[11:18]  Revenge Sempati: tied you down~~
[11:18]  Kylie Roff: I was over in the woods
[11:18]  Revenge Sempati: Show me
[11:19]  Kylie Roff: yes daddy
[11:19]  BratCatz Lyon is Online
[11:19]  Mercy Riiser: Just with the hair....
[11:19]  Kylie Roff: good morning Sir, storm
[11:19]  Stormieluv3 Ashdene: greetings Master
[11:19]  Mercy Riiser: Tal Ven.....Lady Ky
[11:19]  Stormieluv3 Ashdene: greetings Mistress
[11:20]  Stormieluv3 Ashdene: I was looking at the whole Master
[11:20]  Revenge Sempati gives a curt nod to Mercy uttering "Tal" as he contines on, clearly an annoyed look on his face
[11:20]  Mercy Riiser: "Nothing else is different....my kilt....
[11:20]  Gorean Meter 3.2: Region synchronized
[11:20]  Gorean Meter 3.2: Note: This region has stronger melee weapons.
[11:21]  Kylie Roff: I get so lost out here
[11:22]  Kylie Roff: think it was around here Daddy
[11:22]  Kylie Roff: I was looking for the tabuk me and Mommy found and couldn't find him again
[11:23]  Revenge Sempati looks to his left through the trees "Ahh, his house is over there, but this is the woods and not the Port proper."
[11:23]  Kylie Roff: yes Daddy and I made sure to stay away from the houses
[11:23]  Kylie Roff: I didn't go near his home
[11:24]  Kylie Roff: didn't want to be accused of spying
[11:25]  Sphere Proto looks surprised... "Tal Ven"
[11:25]  Sphere Proto: What brings you here?
[11:25]  Kylie Roff moves over next to her Father
[11:26]  Revenge Sempati: Tal Sphere. I understand you seem to have an issue with my daughter hunting?
[11:26]  ecstasia Seubert: Greetings Master
[11:26]  ecstasia Seubert: Greetings Mistress
[11:26]  Kylie Roff smiles to the girl and nods but stays quiet
[11:26]  Sphere Proto: Since when is a woman allowed to break the city laws?
[11:27]  ecstasia Seubert hears the streness in her Master's voice and scoots behind Him
[11:27]  Sphere Proto: Or even Gorean laws as it happened outside the port.
[11:28]  Revenge Sempati looks around "I was unaware that the forests where the Port proper, and the Port is hardly a city by any stretch. I fail to see how a woman out hunting is breaking any laws."
[11:28]  ecstasia Seubert is Online
[11:28]  Sphere Proto: I do not have to ask you if you are fully briefed on Gorean laws, do I ?
[11:28]  Kylie Roff sees her mother come up behind her, "tal Mommy"
[11:29]  Kylie Roff smiles at kira
[11:29]  BratCatz Lyon nods silently ... furious she is silent and then narrows her eyes to the man that violated the modesty of her youngest child
[11:29]  ecstasia Seubert: Greetings Mistress .. she says quietly
[11:29]  ecstasia Seubert: smiles to the kajira
[11:29]  Revenge Sempati taps the hilt of his sword "The only all encompassing gorean law Sphere are steel and the laws of the Priest-Kings."
[11:29]  Sphere Proto nods politely  to the physician, "Tal Lady Lyon"
[11:30]  Kylie Roff watches her fathers gesture and decides its probably better to stand by her Mother
[11:30]  Revenge Sempati: I just find your poor treatment of my daughter, tossing her around like a common slut over her being out in the woods a bit extreme.
[11:30]  Sphere Proto looks back at the warrior, "Are you allow your daughters to get to that level of men, where swords needs to be used?"
[11:30]  Kira Sciavo whispers quietly...Tal my Master. Tal Master. Tal Mistress. Tal Kajira."
[11:31]  BratCatz Lyon: when man hold honor for the people of their own home they treat them with the highest respect you have insulted the house of Sempati the high captian of the scarlet of this port to dare lay a hand on his youngest female child
[11:31]  Sphere Proto eyes the girl for an ihn and then looks back at Ven.
[11:32]  Revenge Sempati shrugs "By assaulting a member of my household you assualt me. It seems to me to over reacted for a minor and rather petty matter, carrying a bow in the woods while you are hunting, even for a woman is no crime. I would have thought a Scribe would speak first and explain the issue to a new citizen of the Port."
[11:34]  Sphere Proto: You may see me as a Scribe, but I'm not just one who registers history. You know my position and when it comes to is, that comes first. Would you not want me to uphold the laws first before pulling favors?
[11:35]  Revenge Sempati: My daughter is no outlaw that sneers down at the laws. True the Port law says a woman should not be armed in the Port, this is not the Port proper, this is the forest. She was carrying a hunting bow, not a long bow, so no violation of the specific laws stated. However from you view a woman cannot use any bow, so how is she to engage in sport I taught her with a bow?"
[11:37]  BratCatz Lyon huffs at the mere thought of some how wanting to extend the laws of a port beyond its area to the vask woods... " i will hunt for food for my family in the woods as often as i please I am FREE and in that I have the right to do that.... as well as any free woman, to carry a bow in the city to ARM yourself with a bow and use it in the port is against the law dear Sir you have no claims over the vask open lands
[11:37]  Sphere Proto: Am I to understand from your words that you allow a woman to break Gorean laws which as upheld even outside the communities ?
[11:37]  Revenge Sempati: Instead of addressing her and informing her of the laws you merely grabbed her and bound her.
[11:37]  Revenge Sempati: What law is broken Sphere?
[11:38]  Revenge Sempati scratches his head and ratters off the one he can think of "7. Any Free Woman found to be carrying or brandishing weapons may be subject to imprisonment or death after a trial. Weapons for Free Women include daggers and hair pins and must be concealed at all times. Examples of improper weapons would be 'male weapons' such as, swords, long bows or any other large weapon. Free woman are not to engage in arena combat except during pre-arranged events where they would be allowed to participate. "
[11:38]  BratCatz Lyon: for the mere fact that you BOUND my daughter i can slap your face right now and not break a law!!!!!
[11:38]  Sphere Proto: The laws that says no woman puts herself on the level of men and picks up arms.
[11:38]  BratCatz Lyon: that would be in battle ..... looks at him oddly.....
[11:39]  Sphere Proto: Youir daughter was using a long bow in these woods
[11:39]  BratCatz Lyon: So
[11:39]  Sphere Proto: that is bearing arms
[11:39]  Kylie Roff: um actually, no I wash't
[11:39]  BratCatz Lyon: So
[11:39]  Kylie Roff: I was WEARING a bow
[11:39]  BratCatz Lyon: she is hunting
[11:39]  Kylie Roff: but not using it
[11:39]  BratCatz Lyon: in the woods and its a short womans bow
[11:39]  Kylie Roff: it was not even drawn, Sir
[11:39]  BratCatz Lyon: you wish her to take down food with her bare hands?
[11:39]  Revenge Sempati: Was she attacking the city? no, she was hunting, so you expect a free woman to hunt, an activity that is well permitted, to go out into woods with only a dagger to hunt a tabuk, tarsk or whatever else?"
[11:39]  BratCatz Lyon: did she draw against a man?
[11:40]  BratCatz Lyon: she has broken no laws but you however have!
[11:40]  Sphere Proto: This is not the barrens Ven, not the lands of the wagon people... It's not allowed..
[11:40]  Revenge Sempati looks to Kylie "Was it the bow I gave you? because that is no long bow, Sphere you know full well few men can draw a peasant bow let alone a woman."
[11:40]  BratCatz Lyon: laughs hystaraclly
[11:40]  Kylie Roff: yes Daddy, I only use the one you gave me
[11:41]  BratCatz Lyon: there is no law she has broken she did not draw in battle she harmed no free person she hunted food you are clouded in your mind
[11:41]  Sphere Proto: The one who called herself her sister had a short bow...
[11:41]  Revenge Sempati: Well then Magistrate, I strongly urge you and your scribes to clarify the laws to state exactly what you mean, because from the letter of the laws written she violated no law.
[11:41]  Sphere Proto: She on the other hand... had a bow with the size of mine.
[11:41]  Kylie Roff: she had Mommys bow
[11:42]  BratCatz Lyon: then perhaps you should perchase a more manly weapon
[11:42]  BratCatz Lyon: instead of violating free women of your own port over jealousy of her skill and the size of her female short bow
[11:42]  Sphere Proto: Ven, your woman is in on the edge of insulting me... Do you allow that ?
[11:43]  BratCatz Lyon: i am Free i will say as i please!
[11:43]  BratCatz Lyon: not a man in this world that can take my words for me, for they are mere words, are you not more a man to turn away from mere words?
[11:44]  Revenge Sempati: A free woman is permitted freedom to speak how she will. That is supposed to be a perk of being of the same homeswtone and free.
[11:44]  BratCatz Lyon: perhaps i should show you just and slap that face of yours for laying a hand on my daughter and violating her modesty
[11:46]  Revenge Sempati: I will suggest going forward, that instead of grabbing my children and manhandling them for a minor issue, you send them back to my house for me to deal with. I can tell you know if you were not of the same Port I would have you head on a platter but I respect and honor those I share a home with. If my household violates a law, I am more than capable of dealing out suitable discipline.
[11:47]  Sphere Proto: Her modesty, by showing her chest ?? Be glad I did not collar her... You seem to have missed that I had been a Magistrate for a reason and that is not just upholding the laws.. I have defended the port on number of occasions and have always put the residents up first.. As your daughter was not known to me, I did not think on addressing this to you first Ven.. she was a woman to me.. and as Magistrate I uphold to laws first whether it's those of the Port or of Gor.. Do you want me to dishonor them and dishonor my caste?
[11:48]  Kylie Roff blinks, "I did no such thing! I was covered properly!"
[11:48]  Kira Sciavo is Offline
[11:49]  BratCatz Lyon growls under her breathe he dares to say he would collar the daughter of his own port let alone the daughter of a high ranking scarlet the niece of Reno..... she holds back her fury glad Ven is here to slap his face for her she simply glares and spits on the ground in discust of such a vile creature
[11:53]  Mercy Riiser is Offline
[11:54]  Revenge Sempati blinks slowly looking at Sphere for several long ihn "First, enslaving my daughters would not be a wise move. Second, there are no Gorean laws, laws only extend as far as they can be enforced by the steel of the Warriors. The laws you are trying to enforce have not been violated as I see it, or they are very vague so you may enforce them however you wish. A law is only good if is it clearly understood, and I have yet to see how she violated the law, but to preserve the peace of the Port and your life I will consider this done with. But you come after my daughter again with threat of a collar for such frivilous crap and matter will be ended."
[11:54]  Revenge Sempati looks back to Lyona nd Kylie "Go back tot he Port so we can finish packing the infirmary for the Builders"
[11:55]  BratCatz Lyon: yes Sir,.... Kylie come to be in the presence of such a man is beneath you anyway...she grabs her arm and pulls her to the port
[11:55]  Kylie Roff whispers, "yes daddy, mommy"
[11:56]  Gorean Meter 3.2: Note: This region has stronger melee weapons.
[11:56]  Gorean Meter 3.2: Region synchronized
[11:58]  Revenge Sempati: Let me see that bow
[11:58]  Revenge Sempati: Does it have a smaller version?
[11:59]  Kylie Roff: its my little one I always use, it has a big verson too but I moved that to a different folder so I don't use it
[11:59]  Kylie Roff: this is the small one
[11:59]  Revenge Sempati nods
[12:00]  Kylie Roff: and I never even drew it, I just had it on my back
[12:00]  BratCatz Lyon: so he never even seen you hunting?
[12:00]  Kylie Roff: no
[12:00]  Kylie Roff: he came up to me and I asked him if he saw the tabuk
[12:00]  BratCatz Lyon: ... gets a bit more mad... as if she sould
[12:00]  BratCatz Lyon: could*
[12:00]  BratCatz Lyon accepted your inventory offer.
[12:01]  Kylie Roff: he never said a word to me
[12:01]  Kylie Roff: just threw me to the ground and bound me
[12:01]  Kylie Roff: never once explained why or anything
[12:01]  Kylie Roff: and I told him who I was
[12:01]  Revenge Sempati nods "Still curious as to the law that you broke. Put them away again. Benefit of the doubt he assumed you an outlaw."
[12:02]  Revenge Sempati: Nobody beleives we have kids it seems.
[12:02]  BratCatz Lyon: wait until her brothers live here with her
[12:02]  BratCatz Lyon: there woujld be no magistrate today had jameel or ehud been here for that
[12:02]  Revenge Sempati: Yet another in the long list of why I do not like Magistrates
[12:03]  Kylie Roff: I'm sorry Daddy, Mommy
[12:03]  Kylie Roff: I didn't know I was doing wrong
[12:03]  Kylie Roff: he knew we had been out there earlier in the day too, remember mommy?? I said I saw him when we were sparring
[12:04]  Revenge Sempati: The laws are unclear, women should not be armed in the Port, now whether that means this area or all the lands is up for debate, and that is no long bow, I have never seen a woman capable of drawing a peasant bow and many men cannot either.
[12:06]  Revenge Sempati: Plus considering this is not a city, it is more a village around a trade Port, such formal enforcement of laws is a bit silly. But then again I am an eccentric old man that actually teaches his daughters how to use a blade and bow.....for hunting.

[Daved Calderwood]

Frankly i didn't know Free Women could hunt with a bow even a small one . By blade I am guessing they would use a dagger of sorts for the actual killing of the animal.

I remember in Laura they had bosks on the field you could hunt , would be cool if they could set something up like that for Vosk Valley.

Correct me if i am wrong but isnt the Magistrate, other than a Ubar/Admin/Reagent/Whatever the final authority on the law? I mean I can see him enforcing something like that if the Lady was walking around armed in the city. If she was outside the city I see he said that she then violated "Gorean Law".

[11:40]  Sphere Proto: This is not the barrens Ven, not the lands of the wagon people... It's not allowed..

That is the quote that I am having difficulty understanding. That only tells me that "Gorean Laws" are extended to certain areas of the land and is more of a question of customs than actual laws.

At any rate I think the Magistrate would have the final say on such matters IN the city or Port or town. Outside I believe its a different story but the risk is ANY free man can decree that the Lady carrying a bow outside of the town is wrong and could exact some punishment (although binding her up with no explanation was a little much).

I am curious to see how this is resolved .

[Victor Warilard]

It is true that a free woman used abow for hunting a sport slave--a male--in Beasts of gor. ICly, there is no reason this cannot be rp'ed. However, with all the drama and dissension between BtB sims and Gor-evolved sims, I am not sure this is a wise road to travel.

[Lilith Illyar]

I have hunted Gor of all species extensively for many years.  Any time I have been challenged about hunting as a female, I've invited my male challenger to accompany me.  A few have accepted.  Of those none went away afterwards feeling the same as they had beforehand.  My methods are proven in RL, and I use only the weapons allowed to be used by a FW.  They require great patience and a practiced skill, but they are possible.
Lilith

[Revenge Sempati]

For an IC roleplay it has been dealt with and what happens will be dealt with when it happens.  Ven is an old man, enjoys his hunting and some of his children, both sons and daughters, express interest in it.  Now if his daughter decides to go off and become some mercenary, so be it but not while they live under his roof.

As to the Magistrate being the final authority on law, well IC my character has certain views about such matters.  To him there are only two all encompassing laws in Gor, the Law of the Priest-Kings and the Law of Steel.  Everything else is twisted to suit the needs of those that wield it and changes depending what political or other gains those in power wish to have.  That said, he will uphold the laws of his homestone up to the point that they serve the best interest of the homestone, because that stone is what he owes he allegiance and service.


On an OOC aspect, I'll never understand where this view that a woman may NEVER touch a bow and such.  Many passages from the books, in valid and proper Gorean manner, prove otherwise.  A normal Gorean woman will not attempt to be a soldier or draw a blade to repel attackers, that is the duty of men in this world, but a leisure activity like hunting not sure why that is not allowed to be carried out.  It seems too often people focus so much on the exact details of quotes and half quotes that they completely overlook the way the world around them flows, at the grander scheme of things. 

[Saitin Ansome]

I too have seen many women of the wagons useing bows,thou it must be said normally only in defence but none the less women of Gor did use bows

[Adoveea Rau]

If more woman were responsible roleplayers who did hunting as a serious roleplay routine like your daughter, Ven, and not an excuse to carry a bow and shoot down anyone who pisses them off to *neener neener, you're mine now, cause I beat you"...
We wouldn't have to have such rules in place.
But we do to prevent the hordes of women/fake women avators  coming in and dragging off guys/women on a hourly basis for the capture, torture, rape rinse repeat.
Anyone who has lived through the disgusting routine of 2007/2008 hordes of 20+ panther/female outlaw bands has dealt with that. It's why so many places started the routine of "limited attackers 2 plus rules* and no panthers/merc females allowed.
Everyone wants to be an exception to allow their own roleplay of what they want to be done.
I think more formal hunts can be possible, organized for a day of roleplay in that manner, heck we have flying ducks and small birds courtesy of Patrik that can be shot down, and some have avatars that have the animals like tarask..
Yes women hunt, I got a ten point rack on my living room wall that is seriously envied by many others, and I also use a 50 lb longbow in hunting in real life-archery snob here, thats a REAL bow, not bells and whistles take off the draw strength  compound recurve.

[Victor Warilard]

Like I said, IC a wom,an could ahve a bow. The OOC problems are what will bring down your sim as the every Xena wannabe will use it as an excuse to don a bow. I have an alt for Gor Evolved sims and sometimes it can be fun, but it will end up destroying the theme of a BtB sim if youa re not VERY careful. If youa re going to allow it for hunting, etc., I suggest you have very explicit rules.

[Mandy Carbenell]

On Teletus, FW can carry a bow to defend the Homestone or, if they so please, a scimitar. Of course they do not carry these on normal days. And yes, FW were known to hunt small animals with smaller bows then men to pass the time. Being a former Taluna IC, I can handle a bow pretty good and since Maddog trained me with a scimitar, my IC mom calls me the Teletian Hacksaw *chuckles* However, when Teletus is under attack we have to get our bows from the weapon rack IC to let ppl know we are armed FW. But it all depends on the sim laws, some sims simply do not allow FW to arm themselves with anything else besides a dagger.

[Mercy Riiser]

I am glad that Lady Lyon posted the rp. It does raise many interesting questions and discussion points about how of if such an activity as hunting by a FW should be held. Vosk Valley was also thought of as being a "rough and tumble" port when it started out...not throwing every Gorean rule to the wind but allowing for more flexibility in rp than what would happen in a more formal BTB Gor city.  Much of this IC rp has alot to do with our esteemed Magistrate and his role in keeping things as true to Gor as possible and our veteran Commander Ven who fiercely defends both homestone and family.   I enjoyed reading the rp and thought the issues were handled quite well on both sides of this conflict. I particularly enjoy Ven's very seasoned IC and OCC explanation of what took place. Good work!

[Revenge Sempati]

I do understand and appreciate the concerns of the old line from femlaw "But I am just hunting" then she proceeds to pepper your ass with arrows.  Been on the receiving end of that many many times, and while we need to create hard line rules to minimize such acts, although some do not bother with rules to start with and just like to create issues and push boundaries.  I also think their needs to be a balance as well for more rounded role play scenarios, I feel if a matter can be dealt with appropriate in RP then it should be done, as this situations was worked out, and leave the sim laws and banning for those that are there to greif.

On a side note I have several RP daughters, a few of which are in femlaw sims, it is the RP they enjoy however they do know that when they come to visit their father in RP they come as proper free women.  It is that balance and respect of how different people choose to play the game, I cannot force anyone to play my style but I do expect them to respect the sim rules when they visit.

[LadyFlame Aulder]

I may be missing something with all the discussion and/or disagreements about females with bows. Yes, in the books, there was some hunting done by females (other than panthers and talunas). But, of course, this was sparse and was within a confined setting and situational at best.

So knowing this, isn't it understandable that some Sims would allow this and others wouldn't? And wouldn't it suffice it to say that if you are female and want to carry a bow to hunt, that you do it where it is allowed?

Why the moaning from anyone over this?

Seriously, and no offense to anyone at all, what is the real argument?

[Revenge Sempati]

I recall no moaning over this incident.  It was a RP scenario carried out, not scripted just something that occured and it raised a question that people felt the desire to discuss.  This was my companion sharing a scenario with the community, which tends to show the strong nature of two men of same city with slightly different views, and it did not resort to violence.

The mention of banning women with bows is to stop the hordes of femlaws descending on the lands, which I appreciate and understand, but on the flip side you have the rare woman that wants to partake in particular scenario without having to venture to the lawless femlaw lands and risk capture.  Plus incidents like this often expose all those tricky little loopholes that appear in sim laws, because depending on the wording things can be interpreted many ways.

[LadyFlame Aulder]

I recall no moaning over this incident.  It was a RP scenario carried out, not scripted just something that occured and it raised a question that people felt the desire to discuss.  This was my companion sharing a scenario with the community, which tends to show the strong nature of two men of same city with slightly different views, and it did not resort to violence.

The mention of banning women with bows is to stop the hordes of femlaws descending on the lands, which I appreciate and understand, but on the flip side you have the rare woman that wants to partake in particular scenario without having to venture to the lawless femlaw lands and risk capture.  Plus incidents like this often expose all those tricky little loopholes that appear in sim laws, because depending on the wording things can be interpreted many ways.

Oh, I didn't mean this particular incident in relation to the moaning...lol...sorry about that if you felt it was directed to you or your FC.

I mean, the disruptive OOC complaints that happen throughout Gor, SL or otherwise...
* The questions of 'why not?'
* The barrage of quotes thrown out when a Sim doesn't allow women with bows for  'hunting'
* Then the chatter over btb vs BTB? *laughs softly*

Please take no offense of thinking my post was directed at anyone in particular or about this particular incident in itself. It just seems that there is a lot of drama around the 'whether or not' questions of btb commentary - and not just on this specific issue. I have said elsewhere and will say it here. If you (not anyone in particular) don't like the rules of a particular game (particular Sims), then play another game. This goes for either side of a disagreement.

[Adoveea Rau]

heck the whole incident was all handled in great roleplay manner. Nothing of ooc or anything, we all use the quotes to illustrate a thought process too