Lowest of the High Castes

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February 2012

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[Anarch Allegiere]

We all know the following description about the Warrior Caste:
"Fifth and lowest of the High Castes. This caste includes infantry, tharlarion cavalry, and tarnsmen. They are known to have one of the strictest sets of caste codes in use on Gor. Members of this caste comprise the military branch of Gorean government. Their caste color is Scarlet."

I've little issues with the description or the fact that it is like that in Gorean societies.
But my main question is: "How does this ranking of Castes manifest itself in Gorean society?"

Are there any 'laws' or habbits that make it obvious that one caste is lower than another?
Do Warriors get less tavern-discounts than Scribes? Does an Initiates word have more value in a magistrates-court than a physician's? How does it work?

[Carter Ebbage]

I have nothing directly gained from readings or quotes on this issue.

But... breaking this down

Castes.. are not a job.. they are a way of life, family, community, even accents .. they are in a sense sub cultures of a gorean community. Not unlike the Indian Caste System.. people of the same caste, worked, socialised, educated in the same schools and obviously wedlock within the caste.... I see no difference in gorean castes to that of indian castes

The hierarchy of castes, I personally dont get this for the 5 high castes, as I have no recollection of this denoting any special priveleges or status or power or influence between the 5 castes.

perhaps its more a social thing, a little like we have in todays society

Blue Caste = beauracrats - the senior civil and public servants.
Green caste - the physicians - the medical franternity
Red Caste - obviously miltary

I am sure in our respective societies... a senior judge would be considered socially more elite, than say a major in the infantry

perhaps thats how it works... Judges, Doctors, Soldiers, Civil Servants .. we can all perhaps classify these occupations as being better than working at Walmarts as a cashier or store manager (merchant)

[Adoveea Rau]

Do you want quotes, those I can give by the ton...but instead at this point I'll draw a simple comparison:

Think of your real life-caste is your job and what you do for a living.
A doctor in real life lives a very different lifestyle then someone who delivers pizza.
And so attitudes come from that lifestyle living and education.

Putting that into gorean society:
All castes have great pride in what they are.
Each caste does respect what the other does, a warrior doesn't want to spend his precious hours hammering out his weapons over a hot forge, he'll end up in chains in a salt mine as a captive of another warrior who spent those same hours practicing with a sword.
A blacksmith doesn't want to go spend his hours using his weapons in practice taking down enemies, another blacksmith spending those hours will outproduce him and make better weapons.

The respect of a caste: do you spit at and argue with your boss who gives you a paycheck? Or tell the major to go get fucked?  (Admin/Ubar) do you sneer at a cop ? (Warrior) .The average real life person isn't that stupid, the consequences of no job and jail aren't pleasant.

Do you give a bad tip to a waiter whose service you don't like (slave service) or refuse to buy inferior goods (merchant).

The drawing of comparisons are endless. How you roleplay out your caste, depends of how your character portrays themselves.

 For example, Dove automatically assumes that slaves will instantly obey any commands she gives, it's what she takes for granted in Gor.It's part of her culture and life.
That's as natural as me expecting in real life for a waiter in a restaurant to take my order and bring me food. 

The key is that attitude, you take for granted that others will behave a certain way, and don't acknowledge anything else. It's rising in lofty disdain above those who are so inept that they do not know how to behave.

That sentence raise your hackles? *grins* welcome to the hauteur of a high caste woman of the warrior caste.

[Anarch Allegiere]

Yes, I understand that very well, thank you Dove and Ubar.

Just was wondering if there were any sorts of customs or habbits (or maybe even common laws) that were related to caste hierarchy. Since I couldn't immediately find anything, but often do see that some castes are described as "higher" than others, while no real explanation is given on the why or how so.


The "military officer" vs. "judge" is a very good comparison I guess, since both are very prestigeous jobs - just the one somewhat more prestigeous as the other.

[Adoveea Rau]

That depends on the region, just for one eyeblinking example:

Raiders of Gor  page 104 Chapter 9
"Politically Port Kar is a chaos, ruled by several conflicting Ubars, each with his own following, each attempting to terrorize, to govern and tax to the extent of his power. Normally beneath these Ubars, but in fact much independent of them, is an oligarchy of merchant princes, Captains as they call themselves, who, in council, maintain and manage the great arsenal, building and renting ship sand fittings, themselves controlling the grain fleet, the oll fleet, the slave fleet and others."

Bet that made you drop a jaw. *mumbles i am NOT a scribe *...

[Trenzos Dyrssen]

There are no laws, per se. Basically, it is as Carter said, caste is not synonymous to a job.

The concept of caste, however, is aligned towards what profession an individual finds him or herself in. Your question, Anarch, is one I've been trying to study since my inception into Gor. What I've come to understand is, the way of life in a caste is fundamentally different to each caste. There is more detail in the warrior and slaver caste than the other castes put together, so basically, due to the stark difference between warriors and slavers, we can assume the distinction of difference is apparent within all the castes.

Coming back to the five high castes though, each has its own fundamental purpose to society, which the previous posters have mentioned. The hierarchy though is an ancient hierarchy and religion has always been at the top of all hierarchies in every single culture predating the enlightenment age. In Gor, you have the Initiates who not only have religious influence, but also a rather subtle political influence over the governance of a city, even such as Ar.

But the intellectual class has always been linked to the religious class. As Carter mention in the Hindu caste system, the highest is the Brahmins who are the religious and intellectual leaders. Norman seems to have differentiated between intellects and religion here, so naturally the intellectual scribes would be below the Initiates.

Curiously, he placed the Physicians in the middle. I'm not so learned in physician history, but I am aware that Shamans were considered healers, religious leaders and the intellectual leader of a tribe. In addition, doctors are one of the most trusted professions in the modern world and here it seems they're in the middle of the five castes to place them in a neutral and diplomatic allocation.

Engineering has always been associated as a savant and creative profession, melting art, maths and science together. Historically, they were not considered very influential in society, but they were very important in regards to infrastructure and economy of a city, which in turn would make them very important in the day to day decision making of a state.

And lastly, the military has always been the most important class. According to the Hindu caste system, the warriors (Kshatriyas) are also leaders, which is similar to the concept of Ubar in Gor, as well as being second in rank within the caste system.


To answer your question though, Anarch, I've come to believe that the status of an individual persona belong to one of the five castes would actually be attributed to his profession. I.e.,  a low level record keeper scribe vs a General of the Army.

[Mandy Carbenell]

*waves at Trenz* I'd like to add that even though the Red Caste is the lowest of the high castes, in times of war they give the orders and even to the blue caste. I found that out the hard way.....

[Revenge Sempati]

That is the main reason why the Scarlet are a high caste, the martial/military expertise the possess.  When you consider the population of Gor the vast majority are in the lower castes so to maintain 'control' the higher castes needed the big stick in the Scarlets to keep order and the status quo.
If they wanted to the Warriors could force themselves into a rank above the Scribes however I think they realized the trap of power and somewhat humbled themselves and agreed to being the lowest of the high castes.  Plus I think the Warrior being the 'outer ring' around the other leaders is somewhat significant, going back to tribal days you would want your fighters to be the first to engage the enemy and defend those within the circle.

As for social standing, Caste is just one factor that effects that, family lines, wealth and other factors also come into play.  For Warriors you have can have the range from bumbling drunken guardsmen trying to make ends meet to the Ubar of Ubars.  A Scribe yelling at you doomed prophesy will likely be ignored as crazy, while an Initiate doing the same will create wholesale panic and fear.  It is hard to say that one caste will always trump another, however Caste is a key component of the Gorean identity so it will effect how people relate.

[Mandy Carbenell]

Well put, indeed family lines are a factor to consider. However my sister and me are never introduced as being the Regents daughters, nor is my mother called Regent in front of strangers. This works well, since I meet Reds from the Teletus Black Guard that have no clue who I am except that I am the Lady Magistrate...and that works for me. But yes, Red Caste is the first line of defense and as such should be in charge when and if needed.

[Rayzor McAuley]

I read somewhere, and I'm not sure it was in a book, that the only reason that Warriors are even considered High Caste is because nobody has the balls to tell them otherwise.

As for the other rankings, there are numerous references to the Initiates *spits to clear the bitter taste of the word forming in his mouth* being the highest of the castes.  I believe that is akin to the Catholic Church during the dark ages.

As for the other castes, Scribes are really the most important because they are the teachers, the judges, the law makers, the historians, etc.  I've never quite understood why Builders are the 3rd highest, because I would think that medical care would place the Physicians higher than the architects. *shrugs*

[Ashoka Mosely]

Also maybe caste rankings under an Admin and under an Ubar is different ? Situational scenarios ... ?

[Isabella Bergiere]

As for the other castes, Scribes are really the most important because they are the teachers, the judges, the law makers, the historians, etc.  *

Oh I couldn't agree more!!   


Isabella, Scribe of Treve 

[Ona Dinzel]

I disagree with some of the statements here. For what I read during these years, Gorean castes are more similar to the caste system in India, just to give a Earthern comparison. A lot more than just an occupation.

This means:

* They were born within a caste and DIDN'T change it. In the virtual realm we play on, I can understand some get bored, but come on...we should not be changing castes or occupations like changing underwear! 

* They were PROUD of being of a certain caste, even lower castes. It is a matter of destiny, fate, tradition, deeply rooted customs, inheritance, communion, sanctuaries, loyalties, collaboration.

* Women RARELY worked in their caste. Which is of course a lot more believable in higher castes except of course for the caste of physicians. Think of FW as having the role women had during the first 1800 years in our societies...taking care of the household, raising children, being at the side of their men. Could this be boring in game? Hell no! I'd personally like to see a lot more household drama and intricacy role played.

* Companionships were agreed WITHIN the same caste. Would you as a warrior, companion a free woman of the scribes? Yes, could be done, but wouldnt you rather join a woman who was given in companionship to you as part of a rarii strategy and sealing of peace between cities, and have a son raised within the codes of the caste? Another bit of rp Id love to see more...political companionships!

[Ona Dinzel]

Now, to the original post.

When I once role played someone of red caste, I remember showing a lot of respect to higher castes than the character's, by bowing and emoting especifically the respect of this person towards anyone of the physicians, builders, scribes and of course, initiates. If red caste understands something, is hierarchies.

But except for us players keeping alive the caste interaction and respect of the "natural order" of things, I do not recall reading anything about this ranking of castes being portrayed with actual examples.

[Aphris Myoo]

RL Castes are a typical Indo European cultural aspect.

You see it back in old Western Europe: nobilty, priests, serfs
Most obvious in India, where its very much like Gor. In India Brahmans are the highest - prests also. Then follow Warriors - mind thata ruler is always from that caste, never a Brahman. a Maharadja is of the warriors caste. Builders and Physicians would be lower castes in India.