Iron Hall concludes RP with Treve

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Carter Ebbage]

I would like to share a note i received from the sim Ironhall today and my subsequent reply. I trust any contact with Ironhall is stopped

Dear Treve,

We of Ironhall would like to thank you for the role-play on Saturday and the time leading up to it.  I think that we played along fairly, as did those of Treve leading up to it. 

However, we as a sim, enjoy story lines that have longer more developed  plot lines, as the original plan of the war with those of Tyros was intended.  This war has progressed far more rapidly then the original timelines since Treve’s inclusion.

This recent turn of events has set the stage for what can only be considered a closing chapter.  Continued development of this plot line would only move it into the realm of ridiculous.  Therefore it is the opinion of the sim owners to acknowledge that Treve’s  climax has ended this storyline with them.

We wish you the best of luck with others who choose to be involved, but we are going back to the original plans for this war with the original group that it was planned with, we feel there is a greater role-play accord with them.

Ironhall will acknowledge that Treve is an outlaw force to be reckoned with, but will otherwise not engage in a second chapter with Treve/Minus.

Regards
Bane of Ironhall, on behalf of the Sim Owners of Ironhall

Reply to ironhall

On the basis that ironhall has neither reciprocated in any RP of note, engaged in any planning, discussion or ventured to suggest ideas of any note or consequence, their only contribution seems to have been to  bring in rent a crowd under the title of mercenaries from outside sims and groups that could not be considered remotely  northern.. I think it would be appropriate for Ironhall to disengage from this and any future Role Play interaction.
 
 We have for , years, striven to engage in role play events that have not descended into pure combat.. and fortunately the other sims involved such as Tyrs Fist et al have worked with us in an OOC manner, planning and discussing themes and actions in a collaborative manner.

I wish you well and hope that in future.. any RP of note such as this requires dialogue, respect between communities, understanding and appreciation that no-one person or community can dictate the behaviour of others by imposing their perspective on events or behaviour or acting in a manner that ignores the theme of gorean role play.

Regards

Carter Ebbage

[Victor Warilard]

I am disappointed with their reaction. You sent a very nice note apologizing about the mess earlier, when in fact it never would have happened if they had simply followed our rules. I hope they don't drag other northern sims down with them, but I think Tyr's Fist is much better than that so I doubt it. 

[Olympia Oakleaf]

On a related but unrelated note... I'd like to thank you Carter for the transparency you've shown through all of this. It's a rare thing to find in an admin team in most sims so I really ... absolutely... appreciate it when you show us exactly what's going on behind the scenes. Even when things go wrong... it's a good feeling for an underling such as myself. 

As for the other stuff... I hope all goes well after this point, it probably wont and something will bubble up in the future (nothing's perfect)... but... I am sure either way fun rp will come out of other sims.

[dana Tehani]

Their loss as far as I'm concerned. And yeah after what Carter did thats very disappointing to say the least. We are all human here mistakes happen.. and I do strongly agree with the new rule you decided on Carter that we be let aware of raid if its 10+ attackers. The best way to go about any raid is contact a mod first.. I think thats the best way to do it.

I think this war has brought a lot of rp to both Treve and northern sims, I know a lot of people been excited on it and I know that our caps for the main part enjoy their time here. We do try to accommodate and make sure people get rp which is more than can be said for many sims I have seen.


As far as I'm concerned, I wish no contact with them. Its sad they could not see the amazing rp that could come of this such as the North uniting and getting together.. men training.. fun raids and yeah, I bet them many would have enjoyed being capped here since Treve is much fun most the time.  And since they used mercenaries that are not even norther, didnt that go against the war theme itself?  Realistically how can you hire Mercenaries who are not in the north I doubt you would venture that far. Plus isnt the war meant to be Southerns VS Northerns          Treve has contributed so much to this war and contributed much rp.. I'm disappointed and... a little pissed at their letter.

[Carter Ebbage]

I am disappointed with their reaction. You sent a very nice note apologizing about the mess earlier, when in fact it never would have happened if they had simply followed our rules. I hope they don't drag other northern sims down with them, but I think Tyr's Fist is much better than that so I doubt it. 

I think Victor.. as we have seen with Tyrs Fist, Olni and several other sims.. constructive dialogue is very important between communities.

As you know, OOC discussion, planning, agreement on RP themes such as this is often 10 to 1 in terms of roleplay activities which extends beyond just 2 or 3 people sitting in a tavern and control is impossible, in my opinion often welcomed,  with twists and turns that should excite, intrigue and lend itself to creativity in reaction to the unexepected.

I am not sure if Ironhall have any idea of the grand scale of events such as the Treve Ball where more than 76 (I think) attendees came together to formulate their reaction to the Holy War Theme..or the work of Eldin Stonecutter etc to create the Southern Cross Alliance, or the early formation of the Vosk confederation etc etc in response to this theme. The initiates travelling the southern cities whipping up enthusiasm, the temple we built specifically for them to burn down, the scouts reports, spy network we have etc...perhaps it got too big for people not use to this type of intersim RP..I dont know ?

Intersim RP only works when parties are prepared to collaborate, discuss issues within a framework of a theme and it would appear from a very very brief conversation, that they wanted to control or to dictate events and participants between themselves and Tyros, even sending their own moderator to Treve I thought was a little arrogant and condescending as she floated around in OOC mode.. a blatant disregard for our sim rules and the presence of treve Moderators, without even a request to observe events,  which many others have done before and have been granted.

.. And yet, they seemed very happy to engage us in battle at Tyrs Fist some weeks ago and publicised the events in goreanforums.net etc and only today when we directly engaged them after months of activities, and giving them prior OOC warning of our attack as we usually do, which they failed to reciprocate when attacking us.. .. they send this note. 

Yes, it seems too much of a coincidence, that after our first attack on Ironhall and the subsequent confusion that resulted in retalliation with Torvies on tarns, mercenaries from outside groups being brought to Treve etc that we should receive this note.. especially since I personally went to Ironhall to convey the letter we sent explaining events.

However, I have been in Gor for 3 years, this is my first encounter with the administration of Ironhall. I am sure my next 3 years will be just as rewarding, enjoyable and interesting without them...not much more we can do I think.

Fortunately, there are many other Northern Sims, we have developed excellent and fun relationships with them and I trust this will continue in a manner as it has before and also we dont need to fight Northern women standing on the battlements with bows.. which as you know was a major compromise in our principles of gorean RP.

In fact, we should ask the other Torvie sims if they would agree to a melee only combat situation..the northern men can use those bloody big axes and we can avoid fighting women using bows etc ?

Addittionally.. being Treve and as untrustworthy as  a tarn with your hand on its beak.. I am sure for appropriate consideration Treve could be convinced to turn against the southern cities in some crusade supported by the words of a well compensated Initiate, we have many erstwhile Torvies in Minus and several with bloodlines to Northern Families.. we could be persuaded couldn't we  

[Rayzor McAuley]

Honestly, I can't blame Ironhall.  They've been contemplating doing an RP ban with Treve since the fiasco in Tyr's Fist a few weeks ago.  And I do take issue with the fact that Treve seems to believe that its own shit doesn't stink.  Case in point, in the "apology" (which seemed to me to be more like a list of excuses) that Carter issued, he stated....

"We know you arent as big as Treve, we hoped this would unite the North against us.. which it did and I for one found that very exciting to see Torvies behaving IC in that manner."

Gee, I had to turn around to see if someone was blowing smoke up my ass.  Now, I will admit that I have enjoyed the RP that has come along with the war from a few Trevians that have ventured North to spy and such, but the raids have been full of nonsense.  Its no wonder that Treve has gotten a bad reputation as of late.

[Spacer Ghostraven]

Addittionally.. being Treve and as untrustworthy as  a tarn with your hand on its beak..

Personally, I do love this comment. ICly, I shall not speak against Treve, but oocly I do find the invalidations a bit wearing at times, Yes, the rules are there, they shall need to obey them.. Wont rant on that.

The letter I read seemed a bit passive agressive. In my own thoughts it came out as 'We are sorry that it is your fault.'

Yes the attacking northerners should of checked first and probably not of brought the entire north against us having raided a few times now I would think the rules known for ratios, and yes Treve probably shouldnt of waited so long to declare it invalid. But it can be worked through and Rp should be kept up between all the Sims. This is the most active I have ever seen so many various story lines and to suddenly cut off a big player soley for their frustration with how it played out would be sad to see.

[Toihva Svenson]

I was going to post a long winded thing, but instead, just going to say that its hard to say what the north is going to do.  Given what happened today, and Treve calling invalid on a raid with improper raid numbers, when they themselves actually violated that rule in TFS when they grabbed our members, is kind of absurd since it seems there is to be a double standard in effect.

[dana Tehani]

From Rayzor:

Honestly, I can't blame Ironhall.  They've been contemplating doing an RP ban with Treve since the fiasco in Tyr's Fist a few weeks ago.  And I do take issue with the fact that Treve seems to believe that its own shit doesn't stink.  Case in point, in the "apology" (which seemed to me to be more like a list of excuses) that Carter issued, he stated....






I read the letter myself and it seemed quite nice and well written, I didnt see any excuses. What I saw is Carter apologizing and congratulating you guys. If Treve didnt believe their own shit stinks, why would Carter bother with a letter and go to every sim and apologize in behalf of our sim. Carter has made it public to us in Treve as well that they messed up. I'm sorry but I see that as "Treve being able to believe its own shit stinks" as you so put it and Carter criticized our rules themselves and not being clear on them!!!! He even apologized for miscommunication amongst the mods. In his letter I only saw explanation to what happened and an actual apology and even a compliment to northerns. He also wrote some suggestions so that better communication occurs. Now I myself am not a mod, but just reading this I just have to say.......... I am totally confused where the heck Carter made excuses rather than just give an apology and make suggestions..  I read the darn letter  more than once too. I think, and my perspective on this, it was big of Carter to apologize..


And yeah, the whole idea of the rp was the north against the south and the north getting together.. that was the initial theme of the whole rp and war. I also want to add, we at Treve get frustrated too at times when things get invalidated, its not most fun for us either.. it sucks.. I personally love raids and find them exciting and fun, am just saying.. if we get better communication ooc and understanding of each other sims, we get better rp..

no one is perfect for goodness sake.. Treve isnt, North isnt.. but if anything Treve admitted its faults and was willing to work towards a better future in rp. I wish we all understand we are human behind the screens, we all make mistakes, non are perfect and that the only thing we have in common is a wish for a fun rp.

I'm sad to see those posts made after Carter had made this apology.... 

[Rayzor McAuley]

I am totally confused where the heck Carter made excuses rather than just give an apology and make suggestions..  I read the darn letter  more than once too. I think, and my perspective on this, it was big of Carter to apologize..

Apparently, I'm not the only one who got the opposite impression.....

The letter I read seemed a bit passive agressive. In my own thoughts it came out as 'We are sorry that it is your fault.'

And that's from one of Treve's own.

[Victor Warilard]

As far as I'm aware, the biggest mistake that we have made thus far was using a sword which is perfectly legal yet not approved in Tyrs. We admitted the error and told the men off who used them. This time Ironhall and who knows how many "allies" brought 23 against 10, in gross violation of our rules, and we had apologized simply for not communicating the violation earlier. What gives?

In regards to the earlier raid, I was not on, but I have been told by several men that the raid numbers were approved before entry OOC, as well they were roughly similar. If that is incorrect, please contact me in world ASAP so that I can rectify it with the men of Treve.

[dana Tehani]

From Carter's letter:

Let me first say,  regarding the recent attack on Treve  after we had attacked your sims earlier in the day,.. we messed up in the handling of the attack.. confusion amongst our moderators, miscommunication amongst ourselves, lack of clarity in our raid rules etc etc.

We know its important, especially for the men and the people of the North to feel proud of their abilities and their lands.. and we know its fun and important to having "bragging rights" when something you plan, organise and work hard to achieve is undertaken well...which in this case it was.. and congratulations to you .

I assure you , we arent sore losers, we dont mind losing, we will take whatever we give out... and I apologise for our mistakes on this raid and the decision reached in calling a stop to it.

If I can make some observations to help us continue on this




I'm sorry.. all I see is Carter directing the blame on Treve and the mods. Passive aggressive is when he says its your fault not Treve's ... His suggestions were quite good too, none of which hinted that any of the recent raid was North's fault.. From what I could understand of his suggestions is the following: 1- not to use outsiders to help control the numbers 2- changing to Treve's rules so that if any raid has more than 10 men they must contact mods and also Carter gave reassurance that such information wouldnt be given out to citizens so the raid is still fun and unexpected 3- Contact Treve mods to let them know if you wish to bring a mod in from your sim.. seems pretty reasonable to me and simple suggestions to help make next raids much more smooth. I really believe thats what Treve was trying to do here. He also concluded with:

Btw.. this note was collectively agreed and formulated by the 12 members of the OOC Council of Treve.. just so you appreciate that collectively as a group we appreciate our mistakes and seek to rectiify them as a team.





I dont see any passive aggressive in any of this.. Perhaps someone can point it out to my eyes!?

[Aphris Myoo]

[I am not sure if Ironhall have any idea of the grand scale of events such as the Treve Ball where more than 76 (I think) attendees came together to formulate their reaction to the Holy War Theme..or the work of Eldin Stonecutter etc to create the Southern Cross Alliance, or the early formation of the Vosk confederation etc etc in response to this theme. The initiates travelling the southern cities whipping up enthusiasm, the temple we built specifically for them to burn down, the scouts reports, spy network we have etc...perhaps it got too big for people not use to this type of intersim RP..I dont know ?

Let me first state I know nothing of what happened between Ironhall and Treve. Actually we have with Omen Valey only had one role play with Ironhall. That was a massive intersim role play called te Harvest Feast. It was organised splendid, specially at the rune priestess of that sim. So they have persons which are capable. Luckily Omen Valeys experiences are better then Treve's, matter of bad luck I guess.

[Spacer Ghostraven]

After being IMed on the matter, I will reply to my own post, my comments were ment of the in world letter sent out shortly after the raid ended that was approved by the ooc council. I have not much read into the other letters yet, but as for the one after the raid is where my comments came from thus far.

[Snapper Hollak]

No where have I seen Treve as a whole act like our shit dont stink, yes Treve did raid those places BUT they did it one at a time they DID NOT go and bring in forces from outside Treve to attack , the name calling I saw yesterday when I logged in was uncalled for , not once did anyone hear any of Treve shout out rude comments to the Raiders, it seems and Im seeing it more and more is that for the most part and Ive said once and I'll say it again Treve doesnt go whinning and crying when they are beaten ,they wait as Adults to find out the outcome of a Mod and still they are Well mannered over the whole situation. It seems to me that others should grow up and stop acting like they always have to be king of the hill.