"creative liscense" and "grey areas"

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Matthius Attis]

so a fellow roleplayer and Myself were having a great discussion about these topics today... and we thought wed like to see others opinouns on this.... so creative liscense and the grey areas of gor.,...

Myself as a bit of back history for those who dont know I started roleplay in gor over 15 years ago in the MSN chatroom and moved on to buzzen adn gcn after msn stopped.... Im rather abrupt and I do all I can to not waver from the books though I am sure I am guilty of it from time to time Myself in a roleplay.

so the question is this... how far do you let creative liscense and grey areas go in your home?... of course unfortunatly there wasnt a 12 volume description of every single thing in gor so we do have to kind of figure out hopeuflly where norman would have taken things nt he more mundane day to day goings of our SL lives here in gor.... but when we have things like femlaws... slaves running around with enough pericing to be caught on radar.... men or women running about in tattoos from head to tale... sure these are the extremes of these example..... but there is a point!... at one time someone somewhere allowed perhaps a single tattoo.... or something like a clit or nipple pericing... and then it began snowballing form there... it is a very slippery slope when we allow such things to happen around us as we see one step could be the one that brigns us off the edge of the cliff.

as I said to a fellow roleplayer in My eyes and this of course is only My opinoun... when we allow ourselves to slip into those grey areas.... when we give in to earth ideals and dont keep our mindset on that of a gorean... then this is where the decline has started ... it is very easy to slide down the hill.... but i think now ive seen some great people and some sim owners who truly are doing all they can to fight and claw there way out of the abyss so that the gor that Myself and many fell in love with so long ago can be found for others new to gor can find the same love that we had and many still do have of it.

so in conclusion Ill leave you with the words from the roleplayer I was having this debate with these words I hope sadden you as much as they did Myself..

"everyone has a different take on what's allowable. I let everyone make thier own decisions. i try my best. but I simply let it go. the problem is too big for me to overtake it. nor do I want that headache. i can only be responsible for myself"

[Ginger Shamrock]

Very eloquent, and I understand what you are saying.  For me though, I pay less attention to how the avatars appear than i do to behavior...

My grey area is when it comes to slaves and my behavior around them.  I know in the books, FW were supposedly extremely jealous of slaves, and their ability to be relatively free to fawn over men.  Therefore FW were known to be cruel and harsh to slaves. 

I can't bring myself to do this very well, unless I've set up this type of relationship beforehand in agreement with that slave.  In general, i just treat them as lesser fortunate than myself, and pity them to an extent, while tolerating their slutty behavior.

There are so many slaves out there however, that I feel the need to push the envelope sometimes, just to create some interesting rp.  How does everyone feel about the horrid FW who never lets an opportunity pass to pester some unsuspecting slave?

[Rayzor McAuley]

In a way, I can see the point of view of the anonymous role-player you had your discussion with.  When it comes right down to it, we can only guarantee what we ourselves do.  However, I believe that each Gorean should set an example for others.

For example, I got rid of my tattoos, which covered my torso, for two reasons.  1. There is no mention of Torvies with tats (even though tattoos did exist on Gor.  Jungles of Schendi if memory serves correct).  And 2.  Rayzor rarely is showing enough skin to matter.

Another example is the way I dress.  When I discovered that kilts were not Gorean, I stopped wearing them.  Tunics and woolen or leather trousers are what you'll see me wearing most of the time.  But will I berate someone for wearing a kilt?  No.  Will I correct them if a discussion of dress comes up?  Most likely.

Yet another example that comes to mind about creative license is how we portray our roles in Torvaldsland.  Some people are so die-hard BtB that they won't RP with a scroll keeper in the North.  It happened to me less than a week ago.  The character was never mentioned in Marauders of Gor, but does that mean they did not exist?  Healers were not mentioned in the book either.  Does that mean we simply accept bleeding to death if we're wounded above the Torvaldsmark?  I seriously doubt it.  Marauders of Gor is one of the shortest books in the series, yet the culture is arguably one of the most popular to portray in online Gor.  How brief it is certainly has caused us to draw from other sources, such as ancient Earth Norse lore.....which I find preferable to making it up.  However, if there is a contradiction between how it was shown in the book and how the Norse did things on Earth, I'll go by what the book says.  For example, John Norman used the term "Rune Priest" to describe the spiritual leaders, where I believe the correct term in Norse tradition is "Godhi."  You won't find me using "Godhi" in my RP, because there is already an example set forth by Norman.

Just a few tidbits of food for thought.

[Randall Reich]

With regard to Assassin roleplay, there are many grey areas we in our Caste must address.  Norman was quite vague about many things with the Caste of Assassins because it's supposed to be secretive and shrouded in shadows and mystery.  One area in particular we've had to use a lot of creative license with is training new recruits.  The training agenda was entirely thought up by us because it doesn't exist anywhere in the books. 

[Elle Couerblanc]

In a way, I can see the point of view of the anonymous role-player you had your discussion with.  When it comes right down to it, we can only guarantee what we ourselves do.  However, I believe that each Gorean should set an example for others.

WARNING NOOB RESPONDING!!! (LOL)

I am with Rayzor on this.   I've been in SL for oh, almost 4 years now and in Gor only 2 months.  I have always tried to live by the premise "Everyone's SL is different and theirs to define".  I think as Gor became more popular an influx of people who had no real interest in reading the books, even excerpts, began to overtake Gor.  It became more about the fashion of Gor than the beauty of the storyline.  Some call it Disney, I call it "Disco gor" - it's kind of like when I was a teen and fell in love with the whole underground club scene then sadly the music, clothes etc went mainstream.  Do I still love underground electronic music and indie music?  Absolutely but I just filter out the "disco" and find my own scene. 

So as I began immersing myself in Gor, reading the books etc, I am not suprised I am drawn more to the BTB ideals vs "fashionista gor".  Don't get me wrong I love the gor fashionistas on an OOC level and think they are tons of fun, but when it comes to RP i want BTB.  Yeah I contribute to "Disco Gor" with my blog and its focus on fashion, but I wont stop blogging the pretty things for my own enjoyment!  A couple times a week I get IM's from mainstreamers saying "hey your blog makes me want to start rping" and yeah its for the aesthetic of it I am sure - but maybe someone else will come to gor, discover the books and become more BTB in the long run. 

We can't deny the market exists for Gor RP way outside the ideas of the book and I think its here to stay but like them I am creating my own SL and my own gor in a way...one that I hope is more like the books. 

[Daved Calderwood]

I always believed there should be alot of give and take when it came to Gor and the accepted interpretations. I write frequently and read alot and I can honestly say the most impossible task for any writer is to try to completely describe the world he is writing about. I think Norman is in the upper 20's as far as books related to Gor and it has taken over 40 years to write up to this point and STILL there are gaps and inconsistencies in the books. The only trick I have seen when descirbing a world is broad stroke generilism. You can spot those quickly when you read sentences containing "traditionally" or "customarily". Those are used to describe more or less the general idea of what the population does as a whole. Now when going by that some sl goreans believe that these generalizations are the gospel and to a certain degree they are correct, the gray area is when individualism comes in.

Sure you can say for example Free Women are jealous of slaves and are always haughty and sour towards people. That can work with a few but i personally doubt every FW was born nwith a stick up her ass on a 24 hr 7 day a week PMS'ng spree. You have all types that run the world , the kind ones , the sneaky ones, the dangerous ones , the crazy one etc etc.

Variety is the spice of life and individual thoughts and actions can add to the seasoning, if we didnt have that i would think Gor or sl Gor would be a very bland and boring world indeed. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying to go out and start a vampire rp or roll up into a gorean city with a Hummer. If a man would rather wear a kilt with his pants i dont see the harm in it . If a slave wants a tattoo or piercing , sure why not. Its when individualism is more out of control is when a problem. You have to keep it within reason.

[Heatherly Jewell]

Sure you can say for example Free Women are jealous of slaves and are always haughty and sour towards people. That can work with a few but i personally doubt every FW was born nwith a stick up her ass on a 24 hr 7 day a week PMS'ng spree. 

 If a man would rather wear a kilt with his pants i dont see the harm in it . If a slave wants a tattoo or piercing , sure why not. Its when individualism is more out of control is when a problem. You have to keep it within reason.

Point 1- LMFAO!

Point 2- Funny you should mention the piercing and tats. As that was how the conversation originated (btw I am the other party) I personally think each person is entitled to a certain amount of leeway in developing thier storylines and individual personas within SL Gor. It's when you start doing things that simply contradict things that were -NOT- generalized in the books that I believe you start encroaching on GE territory.

 People share stories, that's the way of society. So traditions of one clan on one side of Gor might travel and reach another person on the other side of Gor. Who's to say the information wasn't used to thier purposes. IE- Mamba's and such have piercings and markings. Who's to say a man doesn't hear of this and do it? Does it make him less gorean? I think not. As long as he is adhereing the basic fundamentals of Gor -which people by the way are really only the 3 Pillars of Gor- Everything else is pretty much up for interpretation even 28 books later....

[Matthius Attis]

I can see many of these points being valid especially the assasin training one... as far as the kilts... I admit Im guilty of this one... why?... because the leathers look like midevil spandex.... as far as a lot of give and take... Im not sure on that one as I said... once you start giving its a very slippery slope and I think thats where it started here in SL was someone gave a little and it fell down from there.

[ravyn blackheart]

Just like my Jarl said in rp he saw a dancing girl once with her nose pierced and a chain going from it to her ear and he liked it found it beautiful so that is how i came about having my nose and ears pierced. The nipple piercings are his way of marking me, they have his initals carved into them and lock. I already had the traditional torvie brand. The rest was his mark, just like he did my chain sister last night with the nipples. She already had the other piercings. I'm just hoping he don't go for the clit!!!

[ravyn blackheart]

... as far as the kilts... I admit Im guilty of this one... why?... because the leathers look like midevil spandex....

yea my Jarl looks better in kilts than the pants, some can pull off the pants like Rayzor but others...nope stick to the kilts

[Carter Ebbage]

We all learn by watching and observing role models. initially.

You see a bunch of guys stood in black, tats all over them, more weapons strapped to their back than an Egyptian donkey.. you will follow and assume thats the gorean attributes and dress sense.

You see FW calling slaves.. sweetie, little one.. handing out candy like it was a petting zoo to the cutsey wutsey little pigmie goat.. then you assume thats what the interaction is between FW and slaves...

Then you meet somebody.. you respect them, you appreciate their knowledge, you understand why they do what they do and you learn.

Stay true to yourself and your understanding of GOR.....act as a role model and mentor to those who seek your input.

or be an arsehole.. criticise people for getting it wrong, be abusive, jump in their IM's and call them Mickey Mouse and guess what.. they wont take a blind bit of notice of you.

[Isabella Bergiere]

... as far as the kilts... I admit Im guilty of this one... why?... because the leathers look like midevil spandex....

yea my Jarl looks better in kilts than the pants, some can pull off the pants like Rayzor but others...nope stick to the kilts

I'm from Scotland in RL!   Kilts all the way!   

[Matthius Attis]

yanno as far as the kilts Im really suprised they werent used in the north..... little known fact.... the kilt of each man not only denoted his clan colors... but also was made especially so that wen taken off had enough material to easily make a blanket!... ok back on subject here ....

now ravyns story about the chain tot he nose ring all having an actual rp behind though it may not be btb I find that amazing and well done its not something that would need any special tools or special knowledge about worrying in the destruction of nerves it was just good rp followed by a prop..... and i have to agree it does look beautiful indeed.... but its good to see so many like minded people thruout gor and better yet that were all able to debate a topic without saying rarr Imma come smash you in rp now..... at first when I saw this forum i thought it was going to be like the old papers back in msn ... wich thank god it didnt because that was the type of behaviour that went on... so kudos to all of you using this forum as a place to share our collective love of gor.

[Aphris Myoo]

Very eloquent, and I understand what you are saying.  For me though, I pay less attention to how the avatars appear than i do to behavior...

My grey area is when it comes to slaves and my behavior around them.  I know in the books, FW were supposedly extremely jealous of slaves, and their ability to be relatively free to fawn over men.  Therefore FW were known to be cruel and harsh to slaves. 

I can't bring myself to do this very well, unless I've set up this type of relationship beforehand in agreement with that slave.  In general, i just treat them as lesser fortunate than myself, and pity them to an extent, while tolerating their slutty behavior.

There are so many slaves out there however, that I feel the need to push the envelope sometimes, just to create some interesting rp.  How does everyone feel about the horrid FW who never lets an opportunity pass to pester some unsuspecting slave?

I think there is room for nice free women and horrid free women in Gor.
The horrid free woman is however frowned upon

I turned my head a little and saw her following the guard,
he whose whip I had first kissed, from the area. He did not
even look back at her. Doubtless I should have rejoiced at
this development, facilitating as it did my escape from what
might have been a most unpleasant situation. How fortunate
that he, in the line of his duty, he so impatient and efficient,
had recalled to her the presumed itinerary of her schedule. I
was pleased that this, doubtless by some fortuitous
coincidence, had occurred to him. But I had felt, too, a
sudden uncontrollable wave of hatred and jealousy for her,
she being permitted to follow him as she did. She followed
him quickly enough, and meekly enough, I thought. This
might have been noted, too, by the guards.
The woman with her accompanied her.
Then they were gone.
"I wonder what she would look like on a block," said one of
the guards. "Not bad, I would guess," said another. "Do you
think she could dance?" asked another. "Yes," said another.
"It is instinctive in a woman," said another. "Certainly she
could be taught," said another. "She needs a collar, and a
taste of the whip," said another. "That is what they all need,"
said another, "a collar, and a taste of the whip."
Then the guards looked at me.
I knelt before them as well as I could.
"Do not mind what she said," said one of the guards.
"No," said another.
"You are beautiful," said another.
"We will decide who is beautiful and who is not," said
another.
"And you are beautiful, very beautiful," said another.
"Yes," said another.
"May I speak?" I asked.
"No," I was told.
"We know her," said one of the guards.
"She was abandoned by her intended companion, who had
become enamored with a lovely Earth-girl slave," said
another.Perhaps I should not have been, but I was pleased to hear
this. Her projected companion had preferred one such as I, an
Earth-girl slave, to one such as she! Inferior goods, indeed!
I wondered if the slave had simply been taken, or
purchased, by the fellow, whether she wished it or not, or if
she had smiled, and posed, and, finding him of great interest,
had proffered herself as a slave, promising him delights
beyond the interests, or ken, of a free woman.

She attracts attention of men, because of her jealousy. Such shows passion, and passion should be in the collar.

[Shyla Timeless]

Creativity spawns adventure but I am in agreement with the majority who feel that BTB role play is important simply because things can get way out of hand ... and fast! 

Take me, for example.  I should say  … my character.  I am new to Gorean role play (not SL) and I am still in the process of reading the books.  It is next to impossible to absorb and become an overnight success and walking encyclopedia of Gorean lore.  However, it is possible to take a survey of excerpts posted here; read a book or two and try to ebb into some sort of role play already in action without messing up to bad. 

Blah, blah .. blah!  I ramble but my point is this:  I love BTB because it means I am learning.  If I screw up, tell me in IM and you will make a new friend. 

I don't bite ...  *ahem*  ... Often.      

While I am thinking of it, I have a question ...  Can I be clumsy in Gorean society?  I am kind of taking that position and having fun with it.  Poor Shyla tends to trip and fall and stumble over the cobblestones.  *shrugs*  I think it is fun to add a level (LAYER!!) to my IC personality. 

Would a situation like the one I am suggesting below fly with the Goreans?  Is it Gorean enough or am I taking a Free Woman to the very edge of slavery?  Would I be beaten and whipped and collared for being so ... so ... what is the word??  Goofy?  Or would it be alright to have a relatively ... *cough* 'normal' klutz?

Example text:  Shyla turns to walk away from the forum wall and bumps into a rather large rarius who had positioned himself behind her.  He stood quietly reading to himself; looking over her shoulder, he made mental notes of things he found interesting.  His attention and focus were abruptly interrupted as the little woman crashes into his chest armor and gasps, “Oh!  Excuse me!” before losing her balance from the shock of the moment.  He tries to steady her but her foot catches the back hem of her dress and she begins to wave her arms about in an attempt to steady herself.  His efforts to rescue her are but an ihn too late as the heel of her shoe tears a massive snag in the delicate green fabric of her dress.  She stumbles back a bit more and makes a funny face as she almost falls flat on her fanny.  Trying not to laugh, the rarius grips her firmly by the hips, pulling her back towards him; giving her a minute to gain her composure and footing.  “Oh my,” she mumbles under her breath.  Blushing and doing everything in her power not to make eye contact, she nods and tries to muster a smile as she scoots off; tripping over a slightly raised cobblestone.  The rarius cocks his head and laughs to himself as he watches the tiny female rush away, “I hope she makes it home in one piece!”