How much BTB is too much

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Eisa Landfall]

I never heard the term by the book regarding roleplay until i entered secondlife.  I was thrilled at the prospects and order this could bring to a otherwise very scattered sense of a world with so many different cultures and interpretations.

Here is my question.  When does btb transend into book thumping?  When does it become unrealistic.  Can extreme BTB inhibit plotlines and stories.  Is there even a way to not be a book thumping sim without transcending to GE.

At a objective glance BTB on a extreme level could state things such as nipples pierced are unroleplayable...Using the facilities, Northern maidens with loose straight hair (suppose to be in braids) what of northern healers?  As there is (as far as i can tell) no real references regarding them.   Or how about the super debated Free womans strong dislike of slaves as a whole.  I do believe mauraders mentioned something about a unspoken war?  worse in the north even, and of course various debatable other things the books never mention but could be assumed.

On the same token how do we deal with some of the very unrealistic aspects of BTB such as the a force collar (barbarian or fw) who within the same paragraph of fighting passionately against being a slave in the books suddenly (usually after some magical furring)  is the most loving devoted and perfect slave.

How do we the writers intergrate in logic and a sense of realism without taking liberties here or there?  Should we even take these liberties or fallow the arc of each book to perfection? 

[dana Tehani]

I honestly think its a bit silly to stress "SO FREAKING" much on perfect btb, cuz guess what? we arent gonna get it. Let us play our characters, have fun with it.. we dont have to be so perfect.. The books were written in such a bad manners and I myself would hate to get quotes posted at me for anything I do. I feel major things should be considered, yes, we should be careful.. but if we are going to focus so much on the books and quotes we will lose fun in our rp.. So its okay if someone pierces a slave.. Or as Rayzor said once, positions who werent mentioned on gor such as healer for the North, etc.. its okay to have them.. Just common sense, doesnt mean it wasnt in the books it wasnt or couldnt be on Gor.. I think we can follow a few guidelines such as no femlaws, Assassins didnt have homestones.. Warriors are not outlaws.. Treve is hidden, etc etc.. and as long as we keep common sense and realisticness to our rp then I think its fine.. and lets remember, we are here to rp Gor and have fun and not stress so much on everything that happens.. Lets not be book quotes police and just roll with it ;-)

[Mercy Riiser]

* Mercy Riiser points up to dana's words and smiles "Yup...what she said!"

[Matrim Blackheart]

Well for me the thing has always been, there are many things mentioned in the book which in realistic role play are facts. You have things such as women having the strength of a twelve year old boy to state a popular one, and this does mean as a rule a woman can not run around with a huge two handed axe and mow down men in combat....sure you can take some quotes completely out of context and claim this as some GE sims do, but you can do that with any piece of literature, the context is the most important thing. I think the issue people run into is when they say 'this specific thing never happened in the books, there are no quotes where it did'...it shouldn't be you need a specific example of something happening, so long as it is realistic within Gor for it to happen it should be permissible. Say a man wants to tattoo his slave for an example of something that recently happened, true enough no one in the north had tattooed their slave in this manner in any of the Gorean books...but is it impossible? No it's not and therefore should be fine to role play. I don't want to keep rambling on so I'll wait to see what more people say on this, but to me the Gorean books are a nice framework and I love the roleplay environment they have created but they're just so horribly written that it's a shame to limit oneself in the way people do...the books leave so much room for creative role play and that doesn't mean GE and 'vikings' it means using the books as a framework and not some sort of bible.

[Xaz Elephas]

It's never too much if it keeps us in line. If it keeps femlaws off my Gor... If it keeps female assassin out of my Gor... If it keeps warriors from wearing black and tattooned on every inch of there av... Now with that said as Matrim wrote, it does not mean we have to be riggid it means we use the books as a frame work of possiblities. The reason we have to 'book thump' is for all those who attempt to go way outside the box and... play female assassin's. I can't tell you how many females have Imed me with 'But why can't I be an assassin?'

I think its more for the folks who want to play Gor but refuse to read the books. I admit most of the books were bad reads, but a few of them were decent. I play on BTB sims so I do expect them to follow the theme of the books.

Blah, post more later I got go to Treve for some FC thing...

[Matthius Attis]

I never heard the term by the book regarding roleplay until i entered secondlife.  I was thrilled at the prospects and order this could bring to a otherwise very scattered sense of a world with so many different cultures and interpretations.

well eisa... the reason being you never heard this before SL... is because in other venues there was never gorean homes like have been seen in SL.... there were no femalws... manthers.. nothing like that... the ones who ran the homes would never allow such.

Here is my question.  When does btb transend into book thumping?  When does it become unrealistic.  Can extreme BTB inhibit plotlines and stories.  Is there even a way to not be a book thumping sim without transcending to GE.

My thoughts here are.... we roelplay gor... based on the books.... so how can roleplaying within the confines of those books ever hinder rp or stories?.... it was done for decades before the Sl decline of gor and goreans.




On the same token how do we deal with some of the very unrealistic aspects of BTB such as the a force collar (barbarian or fw) who within the same paragraph of fighting passionately against being a slave in the books suddenly (usually after some magical furring)  is the most loving devoted and perfect slave.

and this here?.... this would be seen as unrealistic on earth.... not in gor... that is where you need to have your mindset is that of a gorean not an earth woman it was totally diffrent cultures and mindsets.

How do we the writers intergrate in logic and a sense of realism without taking liberties here or there?  Should we even take these liberties or fallow the arc of each book to perfection? 

unfortunatly the novels were written for entertainment so its very difficult to do anything without taking some liberties... things such as healers... thats kinda of a " duhhhh"... there are many things you have to take that creative liscense with as long as you do it with a gorean mindset and not an earth mindset... that is where things hit that slippery slope of gor evolved

and book thumping... well I admit proudly I am one of these folks... but then again it saddens me to see what gor has come to here in SL .... not because of how it makes all ogreans look... but because sadly so may people will never get to see the gor I found so many years ago and care about deeply.... to some its only a roleplay .... and that is fine as well... to others its a community where there are ideals to be taken to heart ... pride in oneself... there home... honor above all... so you can see how some will take it so seriously when those who spit upon the ideas of gor are basically spitting upon those who have a love for it

[Toihva Svenson]

When you start using the book as a source of absolutes on something pertaining to Gor that wasn't mentioned in the books as an absolute, then you have gone from being BtB to trying to tell people who to RP their story.   The points that Xaz made are the ones that are core principals to Gor, but I have seen on many sims where book thumpers just go so far overboard and drive people away (usually to GE sims).

[dana Tehani]

I think if we are gonna rp our characters copied off the books, that will be boring.. there will be no fun stories, nothing out of the ordinary.. nothing to go "Ut oh!" for.. because it will be all expected. I say its good for us to have a bit of fun. The books gave us the theme of Gor, lets take it and enjoy ourselves.. make our own unique stories.. I think its okay to do things that may have not been mentioned in the books so long its doable and realistic. Lets not pick on every little thing.. I think its so nice to see different characters and stories.. The books are novels, we on SL are the players and intellectual writers.. I know I always think of new storylines for Lina, things that I dont necessarily see others do.. Things I try to ensure are realistic, but different and fun. I'm sure there is much more unique stories to come.. if we are gonna assess everything and follow book quotes, we wont have fun.. we wont build different characters.. Having said that however, its important to keep in line and follow the theme of the books but as Matrim said, not use them as a bible and stare at every word there is.

[serene mistwood]

I think its important to remember that people come to Gor in SL for different reasons.  Some will stumble across it by accident and discover the rich RP environment if offers without ever having heard of John Norman and begin to learn and love it, others will have crossed over from the iRC channels where Gor RP really began in its online sense, and yet others will be the *lifestylers* who take it quite seriously  and where it becomes more than just an IC  and online experience.   Yet others will be a mixture or crossover  to varying degrees of one or all of them..  We all have our own reasons to RP here.

I personally have read the books, and am here to co-author stories and adventures  with others within the fundamental principles of Nomans vision when IC.  I want it to be *Gorean* as if writing one of the books ourselves as we RP in the same style and tradition of them.  I dont want to RP a Gor that allows too much variation from the books.  Eventually you find a sim and a group that have pretty much the same outlook as yourself and you fit in.  People vote with their pixel prim feet.  If I dont particularly like the way a sim RP’s Gor then I dont RP there or with the people that RP there.

As for quoting from the books, you can almost always find a corresponding quote for most actions you may  choose to RP  if you dig deep enough,  which leaves a lot of room for creativity, freedom and fun without wandering too much from the spirit of Normans vision and allowing the liberties you speak of.   If Gor ISNT by the book.. then really.. its not Gor, but something else right?

[Eisa Landfall]

I appreciate all of the responses and Bare in mind I mean no attack or  judgement on personal preferences.  Everyone does come to sl for a different reason and roleplay for different reasons.  Some crave the power exchange on a internal level that transends past arousal.   Some come because they find sexual solace in the various power exchange aspects and others till devour plotlines and stories as though food for the soul.   There is of course blends of the above too. 

Some will take a series of books seriously while others play lightly.  Being any all or none of the above dosint make you wrong or right.  It just is.  My original question was merely IF one was to attempt a more realistic version of gor is it compramising BTB?  Realisticly even though the books are very adament about slaves and fw detesting each other is it not plausable that somewhere along the way or somehow a free woman might some how partake in a friendship with a slave.
And in expermimenting with this realism then is it stepping out of btb at that point.  Where is the line?   

My personal view is most will admit the books where a bit lack luster.  the writer had great premise in his writings.  The outline and idea was fantastic unique and he even had some parts that would spark enough interest to keep you going a good example is the beginning of mauraders where our main character is whining and moaning over being crippled gains a reason to focus elsewhere and starts to recollar several women who where just freed.  Or the tuchuk (sp?)  from nomads who had me laughing once in awhile. 

On the same token how dull to read and or repeat the same plots over and over with at best minor differences.  Should slaves only be allowed plots that are reduced to moaning furring and chores?  If we stay so closely to the lines of the books that is the average slave.  When do we compramise?  I understand those that come for lifestyle and I appreciate thier interests though I speak more to the middle crowd the roleplayers who range from book thumpers to GE.  I  personaly dont care to rp in a sim with female fighters
I dont dislike them for what they choose but I chose gor for the chovanism.  Then again I like plots and interest Id rather not be the free woman sitting around rping the next pregnancy sipping my juice and hoping a slave will come close enough so i can emote how i hate her.  I have read 3 of the books (not my fault they cure insomnia faster then nyquil) and i have yet to see any plot of a free woman beyond her ending in a collar to be honest.  Free woman are thier own subject i dont wish to cross right now.
That could inspire a whole new debate

The line must be drawn somewhere the question is general thoughts of where that line should be.  Do we forgo plots and stories for the honor of gor as a principle?  do we doff the stories and bow our heads to the writers creative rights allowing him to lead us completely and utterly without question?   Or do we take a recipe and make it our own offering differences and intrigue

[dana Tehani]

In the books.. FW hated slave girls.. they dispised them, it said that a slave girl would fear being owned by a FW and wouldnt want it upon her.. yet many on SL dont rp that..In fact many slaves rp to liking FW, same with Fw towards slaves.. their character isnt so mean to slaves, they dont rp jealousy, do we just call them not BTB and stop rp with them? I think give people freedom to choose how to rp their roles without having to justify it with a book quote.. I think its great fun when we each develop fun storylines and our own character, feelings and stories.. A Fw tripped on her dress and fell IC, no reference in the books, possible? yes.. So yeah I agree with Eisa here, sometimes you really gotta know where to draw the line between BTB and getting into ppl's fun and character.. this is just a very small example I could think of, there are many others.. 

[Aislynne Melnik]

When you start using the book as a source of absolutes on something pertaining to Gor that wasn't mentioned in the books as an absolute, then you have gone from being BtB to trying to tell people who to RP their story.   The points that Xaz made are the ones that are core principals to Gor, but I have seen on many sims where book thumpers just go so far overboard and drive people away (usually to GE sims).

Just sighs ... 

[Anarch Allegiere]

On a recent scene I've gotten one or two comments that it wasn't BtB or not Gorean, as well as a handful of comments that it was very gorean and that SL Gor lacks such "hardness". So... even book-thumpers don't always seem to agree among eachother what is BtB or what isn't.

Alot more important is to understand the values and principles behind the books, the morals and visions that Norman used himself to be inspired to write his books, in my opinion... and for that I prefer reading the books Norman got his inspiration from instead.

[serene mistwood]

Well, this is what I meant by finding quotes to back up almost anything, within reason.  

“She had looked into my eyes, in that instant, not as a slave into the eyes of a free woman, but as one woman into the eyes of another. I had felt then, in that instant, that we were both, ultimately, only women, that we were identical in our femaleness', that we were united in the bonds of a common sisterhood and what, in relationship to men, it entailed. We were both, ultimately, only women; we were both, ultimately, though I was free and she was a slave, representatives of the slave sex.”
 Kajira of Gor 162-163

Free women could show compassion, and even as here, feel united with slaves, there are many more quotes like this.  So, if you want to be friends with a slave as a FW.. sure, why not??  ..  You can choose to be the slave hater.... or not.  Your choice, and its still btb either way.  

The other thing is that I dont understand why you feel being BTB somehow denies you new plots or liberty??  I dont think I have ever RP a storyline actually FROM the books.  But act, behave and RP in the tradition and spirit as my own IC within the fundamental principles of them.  And again, slaves did far far more than just fur and serve in the books?  From helping to save Port Kar to the actions of the girls on the Street of Pots.  With respect, I really do think you need to read more than 3 books to appreciate the richly diverse opportunites Gor, either as a FW or slave, allows you to RP , and to still be BTB in Gor.

[Eisa Landfall]

As I roleplay prodominantly in the north I invite you serene to express what other book offers more insight into a northern life besides mauraders.  Again I express I am NOT attacking anyone I respect those book thumpers equally as much as i respect those gor evolved players. 

I have in (insert a large amount of time) gor half spent in secondlife and even *gasps* a year as a real life "lifestyler"  Found that my personal creativity gets walled back or off with the words "not by the book"  I am not the only one.  Now as I am the sort to respect preferences expecially those that run a roleplay arena (sim)  I will not argue its not my place to argue.  I merely have heard from many they felt the same so thought to gain perspective from others.  For instance on one occasion my character was brutalized for merely untieing another slave.  Multiple punishments on that one *coughs* thank you aine....

However the flack occuring fallowing how it was not by the book for  a slave to take pity on another or untie her  fallowed with it not being by the book to be SO brutalized was shocking.  It was merely a plot no more no less and I was surprised by the attacks out of character to my intelligence and person. 

As for reading all of the books again no disrespect but as the others barely partain to what im currently roleplaying AND the new cast in book came out with a prequil as well as several other series (robert jordons wheel of time) are all releasing the next books I cant help but deviate to something more interesting in my own eyes.  I respect and honor your opinoin serene and do not mean to cause a influx of a verbal joust