Regarding Naval Battle

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[thyri Carver]

Rob dont make me turn this thread around!  I swear i'll do it!

Are we there yet are we there yet are we there yet?

[dana Tehani]

Randall is now messaging me privately 'demanding' I apologise for slandering his group.

I have not slandered him -  I don't even know who he is or what sim he is from - I'm assuming same as Xaz -  I have no personal grudges with anyone.

I will not apologise for expressing my opinions.   I think Bets has it spot on -  this was a unique RP with a lot of planning oocly - to have people disrespect that (whether deliberately or thoughtlessly) WAS disheartening and I have not changed my opinion on this.

I am sorry that it ended like this and I hope in the future things might work out better

I agree Bella.. and BC were meant to come btb guards with Treve. It turned around the other way and I would have appreciated a more honest approach OOCLY!! Icly, its really fine.

I was told they were afraid we would metagame. I have been a long time rper and never did such a thing. But fine, Sam (who hired them) and the BC were.. so why not be told at least the last hour so our count is right. I dont care what rp anyone did. I care that OOCly we ended up with way off numbers. I know the rules was passed on to everyone including the BC and all the sims involved and it was strictly asked they are followed. 1:1 ratio was the FIRST rule agreed by all sims involved.

I think this has gone too far. This thread wasnt meant to turn out like this. I wasnt blaming anymore nor I am now. Lets move on and hope for a better rp this time!

For Thyri..

The rp as I posted was decided by all sim admins to be repeated. It was their wish so we are doing it. Everyone has been more than happy to do it. And yes, it does matter to follow ooc rules during a battle, its why one would think they are written up and handed to everyone  otherwise, we may as well have none!!!

Actually, to me it worked out great. The sims involved have been wonderful and I look forward to a great rp. A redo will be more fun!. We didnt call it inavlid.. instead we called it a mock raid, one that taught us. No one is looking at this negatively. Lets move on and have more fun next time! 

[Syn Cybertar]

What Thyri said is exactly what should have happened.

The waterskiing too...

[Randall Reich]

Your opinions are not what I was talking about, Bella.  Since you took it public, why not tell the whole truth, not just the parts you want?  What I asked you for was a retraction of the false statements you made about our group plotting to intentionally ruin the RP.  You were just hellbent on pinning it on us.  Those were not opinions, they were blatant misrepresentations of the facts meant to slander and unfairly blame us for what went wrong. 

Not only were you wrong but I take great offense at the implications because Xaz and I try very hard to NOT allow any of our group members to RP that way and always maintain the highest standards of conduct.  If someone were to act that way willfully in our group I assure you they would be an EX Assassin. 

You continue to disappoint me with your lack of class and your inability to recognize your mistakes, or how they might impact others.  I actually do care about the reputation of my group and will fight tooth and nail if I believe they are being unfairly targeted, which is what you in effect did. 

I commend you on the unintentional hilarity in your last PM, expecting ME to apologize to YOU.  I got a good laugh out of that one.  I wish you well. 

[thyri Carver]

Dana, All i'm saying is that if you were given the accurate numbers beforehand, how could there have been a good IC deception?  The deception to me seems to have been to throw off the balance of sides.  Perhaps for OOC motivation, perhaps not so, not my place to interpret others' OOC motivations.  But I think the deception made for a good twist.

Was it the most oppertune time for such a twist?  Maybe, maybe not.  But in naval battles, twists usually do skew the balance a little.

I'm still going to hold to my opinion that a lot of RP oppertunity was squandered by a lot of OOC IMing, group chats, moderation, voice chat usage, accusations and allegations.  Which is NEVER fun even in a 1 to 1 fight.  

I also didnt say anything about OOC rules being violated.  There was a twist involved.  A RP twist.  One that did skew the ratios. Lets say 5 people from the other side DC'ed due to say... Internet Provider or switching hub going down... it happens a lot it would skew the ratios off of perfection.  Would we have a redo in that case?  I'm sorry for not being in perfect agreement with everyone here but I think that the end result would have been different.  I think that the result would have been different should Treve had initiated a similar plot twist.  I think this RP should have been given a chance to work itself out rather than have to make a do over.  I think the premise was great.  I think the plot twist was great.  I think that the BC behaved perfectly within their rights, no matter what any OOC opinions were.  

Seems to me that ultimately, due to miscommunications there were some issues.  But instead we're on forums and in group chats and in IMs hashing these things out which I think may result in a sanitized form of RP in the coming one.  The idea was bloody brilliant, I wont argue with that.  I think that naval RP is something that's mostly ignored in SL Gor.  But I just am saddened to see that something that had a lot of potential behind it had to be scrapped.  

I'm just patently against voiding RP or calling for redos or mulligans or whatever simply because of a little twist or chink in the armor.  I guess I just try to look for RP oppertunity rather than looking for ways to escape RP.  

Maybe its naive, maybe its stupid, maybe it will cause reprocussions on me, I dont know.  I was not involved in the naval RP because I had other obligations.  And all I saw from my viewpoint were a lot of accusations and allegations being made, and not an attempt to preserve RP.

[Isabella Bergiere]

I am out of this thread!      I have no personal grudges at all and hey we all only argue because we care so much eh.

Randall -  I am sorry I offended you so greatly.  It certainly was not my intention

Ok night all!    I don't want to turn into this person!

[dana Tehani]

Dana, All i'm saying is that if you were given the accurate numbers beforehand, how could there have been a good IC deception?  The deception to me seems to have been to throw off the balance of sides.  Perhaps for OOC motivation, perhaps not so, not my place to interpret others' OOC motivations.  But I think the deception made for a good twist.

Was it the most oppertune time for such a twist?  Maybe, maybe not.  But in naval battles, twists usually do skew the balance a little.

I'm still going to hold to my opinion that a lot of RP oppertunity was squandered by a lot of OOC IMing, group chats, moderation, voice chat usage, accusations and allegations.  Which is NEVER fun even in a 1 to 1 fight.  

I also didnt say anything about OOC rules being violated.  There was a twist involved.  A RP twist.  One that did skew the ratios. Lets say 5 people from the other side DC'ed due to say... Internet Provider or switching hub going down... it happens a lot it would skew the ratios off of perfection.  Would we have a redo in that case?  I'm sorry for not being in perfect agreement with everyone here but I think that the end result would have been different.  I think that the result would have been different should Treve had initiated a similar plot twist.  I think this RP should have been given a chance to work itself out rather than have to make a do over.  I think the premise was great.  I think the plot twist was great.  I think that the BC behaved perfectly within their rights, no matter what any OOC opinions were.  

Seems to me that ultimately, due to miscommunications there were some issues.  But instead we're on forums and in group chats and in IMs hashing these things out which I think may result in a sanitized form of RP in the coming one.  The idea was bloody brilliant, I wont argue with that.  I think that naval RP is something that's mostly ignored in SL Gor.  But I just am saddened to see that something that had a lot of potential behind it had to be scrapped.  

I'm just patently against voiding RP or calling for redos or mulligans or whatever simply because of a little twist or chink in the armor.  I guess I just try to look for RP oppertunity rather than looking for ways to escape RP.  

Maybe its naive, maybe its stupid, maybe it will cause reprocussions on me, I dont know.  I was not involved in the naval RP because I had other obligations.  And all I saw from my viewpoint were a lot of accusations and allegations being made, and not an attempt to preserve RP.

There would have been since ONLY the mods would have known. No one else would have. Thats how it would have been a great deception ICly. I know Tarlyn was ooc only. She could have been told. She wasnt even part of the rp and I know for a fact this would have stayed an ooc information. Prior to battle I let the other sims know that I need number of male spies on the ship so that we can do the numbers   They also wanted a fair battle on their side hence all our men were counted including ones on the ship. So this rule was made up by ALL sim participants. If there was a way to keep it and not violate it.. why wasnt it done?

I dont think it would have then had a 14 men drop at any side at any given time. But if it did we may have had a redo as well  

I also want to let everyone know. That most of other sims had no idea of this going on or the Bc with them so they were just as confused. The agreement was oocly between one man and the BC. Again, rules are to be followed. If you dont want to follow any given sim rules.. then usually the approach is "follow them or here is the door". I understand the rp twist and thats fine but a more honest approach was needed oocly so we can have a more fun battle.

Now saying all that

we didnt invalidate the raid AGAIN. we were fine with the outcome but after a meeting with the sim admins, it was decided to do a redo just to have more fun and with all what we learned. I dont see it as a negative thing but positive.. I dont understand why you see it as a negative? People are excited to do a redo and I am now with a list of 15 people already and I only been online half an hour!!

Again

Let this go.. lets move on and have more fun next time. Mistakes happened, move on! No need to keep going in circles  

[thyri Carver]

Dana, I'm sorry but it seems like you're dealing in semantics.  Redo, or Invalid, the events that took place yesterday "didnt happen".  Be it an agreed upon invalid, mulligan, redo, practice run, mock battle, whatever.  The events are rewound now to not taking place, no matter the terminology used.  And no amount of forum discourse will change that.  Sim admins have made a decision, we roll with it.

Just a lot of the behaviour in this thread, and other behaviours I've seen do not seem to be in the spirit of preserving RP.  Personal attacks being thrown around, accusations, allegations, everything.

It just makes me sad to see something that had a whole ton of potential had to be given a redo. 

I dont know who's able to hold things COMPLETELY oocly if they were given the OOC knowlege.  Perhaps more trust needs to be developed between people, I dont know.  But if I had an IC plot, I might not tell people OOCly either.  But that's me.  Its being given a redo, and that's great.  I hope great things come from it and great RP will be had by all.  I hope the same 80 people come to the sim to see this take place.

[Isabella Bergiere]

double post fail.

[Mordachai Draegonne]

The fact that treve had to keep half its men on the large boat, who were not allowed to use bows was a disadvantage to us.. so whomever claims we always cry invalid is talking from his ass. We had two boats in the water, with 4 people each, which means one bow per boat since three need to row. The enemy had 4 boats, with 6 people per boat, which means 3 bows per boat. There was no way we could have won, even if the odds were even.. so the whole deception, as IC as it was, was unnecessary and just really hard to swallow.

[Xaz Elephas]

The fact that treve had to keep half its men on the large boat, who were not allowed to use bows was a disadvantage to us.. so whomever claims we always cry invalid is talking from his ass. We had two boats in the water, with 4 people each, which means one bow per boat since three need to row. The enemy had 4 boats, with 6 people per boat, which means 3 bows per boat. There was no way we could have won, even if the odds were even.. so the whole deception, as IC as it was, was unnecessary and just really hard to swallow.

Your right about that and when I was told that the ones on the boats could not use bows at least I was told the Assassins were not allowed too when Lina thought she had hired us for Treve... from what I am told, Treve was down before the Assassins even drew there sword. I do not understand why it was planned that way but... I just told the BC no bows, swords only. The no using of bows on the large boats I did not understand.   

[Syn Cybertar]

All trevians on the little boats were down. Thus in my opinion, the battle was lost.

But it does not matter, Id suggest we all just drop it, and come round to Lina's place for free paga and other expensive things.

[Victor Warilard]

I was angry earlier; now I just want to move on.

A lot of time, energy and MONEY (Dana rented the sim for this event) was invested for the purposes of a naval battle. The idea was to try a different type of warfare, hopefully 4 boats against 4. This wasn’t just an rp event, but a chance to try a different type of fighting. Rules were made specifically for this event—no using bows from the main ship since it was too easy to shoot from there versus the smaller boat which were more difficult. Raid ratios were published, not as an optional suggestion, but as a rule! A time was agreed upon which was later delayed specifically so we could have EVEN numbers to make the battle more realistic. We were told the black caste had asked if they could join. That seemed like a great idea—a way to mend fences after all the OOC bad feelings from the past. Then we were told they wanted to stay on the main ship which meant we had to completely change our plans since we would not have enough men for the same number of boats. We made last minute changes in strategy for OOC reasons to accommodate them. Now we are told how foolish our strategy was! It is not true that the battle was over already as there were some men plus trhe BC to defend the ship with melee weapons--only melee weapons were allowed on the big ship (anotehr rule specific to the event). I don't know how skilled with swords the other side was, but if they weren't very good we might have been able to hold them off. We will never know now.

The start time was not adhered to. The raid ratio was not adhered to. We didn’t invalidate it, only stating we would not allow captives because the rules were broken. Then, in what he now admits was a mistake, a BC mentions his animosity for one of our warriors (who wasn’t even there) and his disdain for Treve, giving us the implication these were the motives for their IC role-play. Why  someone would go to a Treve event if they felt that way is another question. This inflamed everybody even more than they were and led to this downward spiral and accusations.

We should have made it clearer that the focus was the naval battle. Maybe we should have stated more forcefully upfront that we would not deviate from the raid ratios. We should not have agreed to a change in strategy to accommodate BC’s, so there were certainly mistakes on our part. However, I do think some better judgment should have been used on the part of the BC considering the bad blood already existing between the two groups. People with enmity towards Treve should have not have participated. An IC plot requiring a suspension of OOC rules should have been cleared with a moderator beforehand. Consideration of the type of event it was and the efforts of others should have been made.

It is because of the wishes of all the other sims involved to actually engage in the type of battle that was planned that this will be done over. I think that is the wiser choice and gives everyone chance to move forward.

[Syn Cybertar]

Again, we really dont need to mention my personal views. You can all hate me and admit it OOC during RP with me. I dont care... It doesnt affect your RP.

[Xaz Elephas]

Victor,

That is why I pushed forward with the BC coming to this, to mend fences. Lina knew BC was involved. I even gave her names of the ones who would be. So how its claimed last minute we were added is beyond me. I gave lina the names of six 4-5 days before hand. I showed Lina her own logs where she came to me to ask me. I even spoke to several other MA’s ooc what they thought about it a week before I went back and forth with should we shouldn’t we.  I had to put my dad in the hospital Friday night. I did not want to disappoint anyone so Sunday I logged in before going to the hospital to see what we were suppose to do was followed.  I was told that all three of the attacking sims knew we were involved. Now after the fact I am old no, only one person from Port Jad did.

I still do not see where we are to blame for this going bad. A twist was put into the role-play but seems that the role-play from that was taken as some ooc plot to get at people. Then I am told the person who hired us had an ooc agenda after the fact yet I see he on the list on those involved.  *sighs* 

Good luck with your battles.  I am going back to my camp to do what it is I do.