Killing slaves

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Betony Baryl]

Out trolling again to get some quotes. 

Are there some good quotes are there to show what is usual for killing a slave?  I have heard that one could kill a slave that displeased, but expect to pay recompense.  Do you feel that the severe discipline or killing of a slave was mostly left to the owner in the books - out of respect to the owner?  Or in the case of a slave that did a grave offense - would a free take it upon themselves to kill the slave?   Are there a variety of quotes out there that address this?

[Anarch Allegiere]

Lots of contradicting quotes there...

They often said in the sidelines that slaves could get killed, but I can't recall any actually happening or being described in the books themselves. I've got a bit of a double feeling on it as well... Norman often states in his open letters to the public how sadism has no place in the world of Gor, but I'm sure he has written things that contradict that at times as well.

[11/06/2011 11:38:33] Anarch: John Norman's words:
[11/06/2011 11:38:34] Anarch: "BDSM is not Gorean. If something is not beautiful, it is not Gorean. In any event, I am assuming that what is involved here, in any case, is consensual. If a woman chooses to submit herself, voluntarily, to a master, it seems to me that is her business, and his business. She would then, of course, be a slave, and would be treated as a slave. One supposes remarkable fulfillments may occur in such an arrangement. It is, of course, important to treat the slave, however uncompromisingly strict you are with her, however much she might fear you, in a humane way, as one would any other animal. Some men, I gather, dislike women, and enjoy hurting them. That makes no sense to me. Women are wonderful, and precious. It is a delight to own one; why would one hurt her? What would be the point of that, mere sadistic pleasure? I think we might distinguish between, say, S/M sex, or sadomasochistic sex, and M/S sex, or Master/Slave Sex. In a sense they seem opposite. Love is important. It is not to be confused with cruelty. Gratuitous cruelty seems to me uncalled for, and ugly, morally and aesthetically. Too, it seems unworthy of a true master. The point is loving and serving, and owning and mastering, not hurting."

[Kaitlin Eiren]

Out trolling again to get some quotes. 

Are there some good quotes are there to show what is usual for killing a slave?  I have heard that one could kill a slave that displeased, but expect to pay recompense.  Do you feel that the severe discipline or killing of a slave was mostly left to the owner in the books - out of respect to the owner?  Or in the case of a slave that did a grave offense - would a free take it upon themselves to kill the slave?   Are there a variety of quotes out there that address this?

While Norman does not go into a detailed example of killing a slave he seems to hold that position without fail throughout the novels.  There also seems to be the need for the owner to request compensation if warranted and in some cases it would not even be warranted if the slave was deserving of the punishment in that extreme.  I cannot imagine a Free Person in Gor going off to find a slave's owner before killing them.  I also don't see an owner being overly confrontational if it was deserved.  Even in Slave Girl the slave was expected to have been pleasing in a brutal attack by Bran Loort.

“Any free man may discipline an insolent or errant slave,” I said, “even one who is in the least bit displeasing, even one he might merely feel like disciplining. If she is killed, or injured, he need only pay compensation to her master, and that only if the master can be located within a specific amount of time and requests such compensation.” In virtue of such customs and statutes the perfect discipline under which Gorean slaves are kept is maintained and guaranteed even when they are not within the direct purview of their masters or their appointed agents. (Players of Gor)

[serene mistwood]

”What do you think should be her punishment?” asked Callimachus of me.
“If she is guilty,” I said, “whatever you wish, as she is a slave.” This was in full accord with Gorean law. Indeed, anything, for whatever reason, or without a reason, may be done to a slave.”
~Guardsman of Gor, page 115~

”Discipline?” breathed the girl.
“Yes,” said Mira, “the slave girl is subject to discipline and punishment. She is owned, like a sleen or tarsk is owned. She is owned, literally owned. You must understand that in its full sense. Accordingly, anything may be done with her that the master wishes. She may even be slain, if the master wishes.”
“Then the slave girl is totally helpless,” said the girl. “she is totally at the mercy of the Master.”
“Yes,” said Mira.”
~Blood Brothers of Gor, page 296~

“It is the duty of a slave girl to be fully and completely pleasing to men. Were she not so she would be subject to sever punishment, including even torture and death, should it be the master’s wish.”
 ~Slave Girl of Gor, Pg. 226~

"In some cities a slave can be slain for so much as touching a weapon. Insubordination, slaves are quickly taught, is not acceptable, in any way, to the Gorean master."
 ~Kajira of Gor~



The quotes about killing slaves really have nothing to with sadism on Gor ( ie sexual gratification from inflicting pain on another ), but rather as a matter of discipline and/or punishment, two very different terms that Norman does use interchangably as if they mean the same thing, which they dont. 

I would imagine it was a rare occurence as in Normans Gor most slaves embrace their slavery after a fairly short time and live to please their Masters , unlike in SL Gor where errant, offending and wayward slaves are much more common than in the books.

[Poisonous Adored]

It is clearly not usual to kill a slave, in books, even Elinor, who betrayed, who lied and who stole, who is a barbarian, so, a low slave, will be harshly punished, but not killed.

Surbus who was about to kill a paga slave, in "raiders" is described as a cruel man. And the slave that he wishes to kill, has a little value, she is not very beautiful. We can even think that if Surbus would have not been so dangerous, if the slave would have been very beautiful, maybe more men would have tried to buy it to Surbus.

In fact, probably that Gorean kill slaves only in the case of a very serious faults, if really, indulgence is not possible. Anything can be inflicted to a slave, in theory. In the practice, Gorean ponder and use in priority, other punishments.

For people in SL Gor with a lack of imagination, who prefer to kill a slave to her first fault, this is a list of Gorean punishments, all BTB and not final:

General:
Lashing
Whipping with slave whip (not damaging)
Special brands, lying, thieving, treason (very heavy punishment)
Put in a cage for several days (but well, if enough traffic around...)
Hair shaving
Handcuffing
Kicking
Binding and gagging
Bound by master's will
Stripping and let walk naked
Forced feeding with a tube
She-quadrupped (walking on all fours, naked as animal, picking up things with mouth only)
Serve the chain gang (actually gang bang)
Give her strange name (or no name at all)
Work in a paga tavern, pleasure racks or brothel


Torvies
Thrown to a thrall
Bound at the oar of a serpent
Bind on a block of ice

Nomads
Thrown in a bosk dung sack
Bind under a wagon, naked, to be used by all
Run behind a kaiila, tharlarion

Hunters
Put in a room with urts (or other animals)
Almost drowning


The following punishments are non Gorean:
Senseless torture (sadism)
Eating or licking dirt, grass, shit etc (humiliation combined with sadism)
Letting them wear funny clothes (humiliation)
Breaking limbs etc (mutilation)

Personally, I have a preference for cutting/shaving hair or ordering to a slave to walk on her fours for an enough long time.... When you kill the slave, well, she patients without RP for 24 hours, she leaves the sim and goes to play in another, and anyway, 24 hours after, she removed from her memory, the whole scene.
But touch to her appearance, and there... 

[dana Tehani]

”What do you think should be her punishment?” asked Callimachus of me.
“If she is guilty,” I said, “whatever you wish, as she is a slave.” This was in full accord with Gorean law. Indeed, anything, for whatever reason, or without a reason, may be done to a slave.”
~Guardsman of Gor, page 115~

”Discipline?” breathed the girl.
“Yes,” said Mira, “the slave girl is subject to discipline and punishment. She is owned, like a sleen or tarsk is owned. She is owned, literally owned. You must understand that in its full sense. Accordingly, anything may be done with her that the master wishes. She may even be slain, if the master wishes.”
“Then the slave girl is totally helpless,” said the girl. “she is totally at the mercy of the Master.”
“Yes,” said Mira.”
~Blood Brothers of Gor, page 296~

“It is the duty of a slave girl to be fully and completely pleasing to men. Were she not so she would be subject to sever punishment, including even torture and death, should it be the master’s wish.”
 ~Slave Girl of Gor, Pg. 226~

"In some cities a slave can be slain for so much as touching a weapon. Insubordination, slaves are quickly taught, is not acceptable, in any way, to the Gorean master."
 ~Kajira of Gor~



The quotes about killing slaves really have nothing to with sadism on Gor ( ie sexual gratification from inflicting pain on another ), but rather as a matter of discipline and/or punishment, two very different terms that Norman does use interchangably as if they mean the same thing, which they dont. 

I would imagine it was a rare occurence as in Normans Gor most slaves embrace their slavery after a fairly short time and live to please their Masters , unlike in SL Gor where errant, offending and wayward slaves are much more common than in the books.

Well said Serene. I could NOT have said this better. Problem is with a lot of SL slaves, they get whipped and go back doing the same thing that caused the whipping. If a whipping really occured, I doubt they would dare. I think a slave on SL should definitely have a personality but being rude and mouthy all the time despite punishments is just not one of them, which is why I can see it being more common on SL than it was in the books.

[thyri Carver]

I have to agree Dana, in SL we dont "feel" the whip.  We dont "feel" the punishment.  We get constantly told "well dont stick a prisoner on the opposite end of the sim away from any RP because that's OOC punishment for IC actions".  That being said, I dont think we should turn to OOC punishments for IC actions but I'm really feeling something, anything, needs to be done in order to make people think that actions have consequences.

The slave whipping is NOT a happy pretendy funtime BDSM spank me spank you time.  Even if its a slave bringing their owner the slave whip.  This is NOT for kinky funtime.  The slave whip HURTS.  I think like in Roots... with Kunta Kintae (or however you spell that).  Yes he was bullwhipped but he's also a man.  But lets pretend that our dear friend Kunta is a woman, and the whip is a 5 bladed gorean slave whip.  This is not a happy soft fluffy flogger making your naughty bits tingle.  Its a freakin WHIP.  It hurts.  A LOT.  After a few strokes with that I'd dare say you'd be screaming "Toby" too! 

But in SL we're desensitized to whippings and such.  Which is why I think a lot of people dont discipline slaves because of the connection a whip has to BDSM funtime play.  Slaves run amok misbehaving hoping to have a little whip me whip you funtime. 

So yes, we're drawn to the killing aspect because so many times we're beaten over the head with the "gor is harsh" angle.  And yes it is harsh.  its harsh that a slave be whipped.  Not just go straight for the killing.  We see in many quotes a slave MAY be killed for any reason or no reason.  I think the purpose the writer had for this was to further seperate the slave into the slave animal role. 

But in SL we have people who seperate out so much, that they dont care that their character is being whipped.  They're desensitized.  They stand there stoically and take their whipping and that whipping doesnt hurt a bit.  We see many people in SL using a whip... and this is a bullwhip people.  A single tailed whip that cracks.  ok it might be a signal whip too but lets not split hairs here.  Its not a 5 bladed gorean slave whip.  With what I see people doing in SL there'd be some SERIOUS markings left on slaves from whippings.  We even have cute little tattoo layers that we can wear proudly sporting our whipmarks.  Ever look at those?  Broken skin, blood trails. Thats from being whipped with a single tail whip.  NOT a gorean slave whip (sorry for beating this dead horse so much but its a HUGE pet peeve of mine... go out and buy a damned 5 bladed whip or a flogger if you cant find a 5 tailed one.  Stop wandering around with bullwhips... kthxbai)

To be honest, I'd bring in more use of the slave goad.  Now, we can prolly find some people with an electrokink out there where they'd moan and squirm and cream all over themselves, but I'd dare say that fewer people associate a shock of electricity with happy funtime than they do a whip.

And if it is necessary to kill a slave (and hey in SL there are TONS of reasons to kill em believe you me!) then yes, its a gorean thing to do.  But I'd consider it a last resort. 

But again, because we have SO many slaves in SL runing around, we really dont think too much about killing one, because there are 20 others banging down the sim door looking for a piece of that pie.  But consider this, a slave would cost a fair amount of money, why not sell the slave rather than outright killing them?  Sell them to a mill or the laundry, or the kitchens... something wholly degrading.  Might make for some interesting RP for the slave player as well.   

[Conall DeCuir]

Or sell her to a butcher, what is very btb also

For all she knew she was being taken to a butcher shop, there to be dismembered for sleen feed. Such may be done to a girl, if it be the will of her master.
~Guardsmen~

I don't agree with killing a slave because of having no other imagination what to do or maybe being to insecure and to kill a slave is the easiest way. But to kill a slave was done even when it was not described all lenghtly in the books. Not every slave had been that prescious and would have cost that much and to displease a Free Man could have meant death. It would be good, that slaves would keep in their minds, that not every stranger is like her love master and fondles her a bit with a whip. Some do not care.

In my case, i can't recall when i have whipped a slave the last time as i mostlyfound some other things i could do with her. Right now, that i am at Port Kar, there are the canals and when i would hold her by her feet, upside down, and the urts are snapping for her head and she would still .. giggle .. i would drop her. Done.

[Conall DeCuir]

But again, because we have SO many slaves in SL runing around, we really dont think too much about killing one, because there are 20 others banging down the sim door looking for a piece of that pie.  But consider this, a slave would cost a fair amount of money, why not sell the slave rather than outright killing them?  Sell them to a mill or the laundry, or the kitchens... something wholly degrading.  Might make for some interesting RP for the slave player as well.   

Shall we bet that many of the slave players would have no clue that such a selling would be a bit degrading and it wouldnt be roleplayed as many slave players are no roleplayers but something else i don't find the real description for right now.

[Betony Baryl]

Agreed on all the above.  And thanks for the good information and quotes!

I also believe that killing should be a last resort; but unfortunately some of the slave role players will really overplay the feisty part.  And the whipping as a deterrent?  As they don't actually feel the bite of the whip it seems to be a bit of a lark for some of them.

I like Poisonous' idea!  They are more likely to respond to a haircutting makes them unattractive instead of physical punishment which they can't feel. 

[Drevan Darkbyrd]

Ok here's a question then just last night I had slave that was mouthy to the Free, indeed was outright insulting a green and a Warrior, and too top it of apparently her Builder Father raised her as a man even so far as too have taken drinking in the tavern, but last night she was mouthy and insulting to the Free so I grabbed her slapped her a few times intending to just rough her up alittle and scare some respect into her, well she essentially metagamed claiming my beating her would do no damage and cause her little pain, so I escalated to planning to scare her with a bit of rape in truth I was too damn tired to pull off that kind of RP but that didnt matter because she bit me drawing blood and then punched my recently wounded shoulder. Now I killed her for this maybe others would disagree but to me if your a slave, mouth off and insult the free and then attack the free there is no option but to kill them

[Kaitlin Eiren]

I have to agree Dana, in SL we dont "feel" the whip.  We dont "feel" the punishment.  We get constantly told "well dont stick a prisoner on the opposite end of the sim away from any RP because that's OOC punishment for IC actions".  That being said, I dont think we should turn to OOC punishments for IC actions but I'm really feeling something, anything, needs to be done in order to make people think that actions have consequences.

The slave whipping is NOT a happy pretendy funtime BDSM spank me spank you time.  Even if its a slave bringing their owner the slave whip.  This is NOT for kinky funtime.  The slave whip HURTS.  I think like in Roots... with Kunta Kintae (or however you spell that).  Yes he was bullwhipped but he's also a man.  But lets pretend that our dear friend Kunta is a woman, and the whip is a 5 bladed gorean slave whip.  This is not a happy soft fluffy flogger making your naughty bits tingle.  Its a freakin WHIP.  It hurts.  A LOT.  After a few strokes with that I'd dare say you'd be screaming "Toby" too! 

But in SL we're desensitized to whippings and such.  Which is why I think a lot of people dont discipline slaves because of the connection a whip has to BDSM funtime play.  Slaves run amok misbehaving hoping to have a little whip me whip you funtime. 

So yes, we're drawn to the killing aspect because so many times we're beaten over the head with the "gor is harsh" angle.  And yes it is harsh.  its harsh that a slave be whipped.  Not just go straight for the killing.  We see in many quotes a slave MAY be killed for any reason or no reason.  I think the purpose the writer had for this was to further seperate the slave into the slave animal role. 

But in SL we have people who seperate out so much, that they dont care that their character is being whipped.  They're desensitized.  They stand there stoically and take their whipping and that whipping doesnt hurt a bit.  We see many people in SL using a whip... and this is a bullwhip people.  A single tailed whip that cracks.  ok it might be a signal whip too but lets not split hairs here.  Its not a 5 bladed gorean slave whip.  With what I see people doing in SL there'd be some SERIOUS markings left on slaves from whippings.  We even have cute little tattoo layers that we can wear proudly sporting our whipmarks.  Ever look at those?  Broken skin, blood trails. Thats from being whipped with a single tail whip.  NOT a gorean slave whip (sorry for beating this dead horse so much but its a HUGE pet peeve of mine... go out and buy a damned 5 bladed whip or a flogger if you cant find a 5 tailed one.  Stop wandering around with bullwhips... kthxbai)

To be honest, I'd bring in more use of the slave goad.  Now, we can prolly find some people with an electrokink out there where they'd moan and squirm and cream all over themselves, but I'd dare say that fewer people associate a shock of electricity with happy funtime than they do a whip.

And if it is necessary to kill a slave (and hey in SL there are TONS of reasons to kill em believe you me!) then yes, its a gorean thing to do.  But I'd consider it a last resort. 

But again, because we have SO many slaves in SL runing around, we really dont think too much about killing one, because there are 20 others banging down the sim door looking for a piece of that pie.  But consider this, a slave would cost a fair amount of money, why not sell the slave rather than outright killing them?  Sell them to a mill or the laundry, or the kitchens... something wholly degrading.  Might make for some interesting RP for the slave player as well.   

I am so stealing this for a thread.  Well said.

[Poisonous Adored]

Agreed on all the above.  And thanks for the good information and quotes!

I also believe that killing should be a last resort; but unfortunately some of the slave role players will really overplay the feisty part.  And the whipping as a deterrent?  As they don't actually feel the bite of the whip it seems to be a bit of a lark for some of them.

I like Poisonous' idea!  They are more likely to respond to a haircutting makes them unattractive instead of physical punishment which they can't feel. 

Whipping will have an effect only with a serious RPer who tend to RP with realism. Killing? No effect, who care? First, yes, when you kill for a fault that you could replace but another punishment, you chose the easiest solution. I can understand when you have in front of you, someone who is more a grieffer rper than someone willing to play seriously the role. So, you kill the girl, you walk off and she tp out, issue solved.
But if you want to give a true lesson to someone who need to understand the consequences of some actions, as slaves, a public humiliation is the best. Your avatar being unattractive,, shaved head or forced to walk on fours, well.... It's BTB and there, the typist feels a real emotion. People who mock you, your character being humiliated, if you seek real emotions through your RP, welcome. No sure you will expose yourself once again to such punishment.

I like also, Thyri's suggestion about selling the unpleasant slave.

[Elle Couerblanc]

But again, because we have SO many slaves in SL runing around, we really dont think too much about killing one, because there are 20 others banging down the sim door looking for a piece of that pie.  But consider this, a slave would cost a fair amount of money, why not sell the slave rather than outright killing them?  Sell them to a mill or the laundry, or the kitchens... something wholly degrading.  Might make for some interesting RP for the slave player as well.   

Shall we bet that many of the slave players would have no clue that such a selling would be a bit degrading and it wouldnt be roleplayed as many slave players are no roleplayers but something else i don't find the real description for right now.

This is my dream RP scenario as a slave - a master who is not afraid to sell me off IC over and over and over.  But of course always buys me back LOL.

[Randall Reich]

I've killed plenty of slaves but I am hesitant to just off one for shits and giggles.  Even a simple kettle and mat slave was worth a bit of money.  So now I have an IC agreement with a group of Panthers who live down the river from me.  We trade captives and supplies back and forth in exchange for information.