(RL) Gender of Slavers - relevant?

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Kaitlin Eiren]

@Tanti
Of course you don't think the typists gender weights into the equation since I am certain you believe you do a credible job.

Not necessarily, but after 15 years of role playing in different genres and mediums, I know that there are others who do a fantastic job. People who have literally shocked others when they revealed that their gender, and people who have been known to play both male and female characters, but who have never revealed their true gender.

The entire reason that people were so utterly shocked and appalled on the rare occasions that someone in HTML Gor was found to be playing the opposite sex was precisely because they had been fooled by the person, and believed them to be the gender they portrayed. The whole reason that people want to ASK and get an answer about someone's gender, is because they're afraid of unwittingly having role play sexual interaction with someone of the same sex (which they don't want and is their right to not want).

Let's face it - if it were that easy to tell, for real, you wouldn't care about people disclosing their gender, because it wouldn't be necessary.

I think you must have missed the part where I said I have never asked.  I've never needed to ask.

[Elle Couerblanc]

Meh..what I don't know won't hurt me is my motto plus I don't ask unless they are asking for something outside of RP.  But if I knew it could very possibly sway how I interact with that person - that I don't doubt at all.  Call me an non role player if you like but it won't matter - it's my fantasy, my choice.  So if saying I won't RP sex with someone I know is RL female leads you to call me a non role player than so be it.  In the end the only person's opinion who matters about myself is mine.

[Babybear Serenity]

I'm not going to hop onto either side of the agree or disagree fence, I'm rather torn on the issue as a whole, especially considering how we really are supposed to be playing roles here, fitting as they might be to our real life persona's or not.

Many excellent points were raised in this thred by both sides of the coin. Gor just happens to be one of those media where many people (not all) use it as a very deep form of escapism, so much so that gender matters, and I'm not just talking about sex. Norman's Imaginative Sex non-fiction work described using these types RP scenes/scenarios with the sole purpose to broaden and deepen our marital heterosexual monogamous relationships. A far cry indeed from the Gor we all know and love.

This really isn't a black and white issue as far as I'm concerned when we start to discuss IC and OOC emotions being connected through the ever elusive pixels that binds us all. For myself personally, I don't have a prefence and I don't need to know.

That being said, if using the "she" instead of the more appropriate "he" in an emote during RP, fudging up your personal pronouns is a dead giveaway for you, then you might be gravely mistaken.. as I often catch my partner in crime, Seginus (Vega Legend) refering to himself as a 'she'. Is he a woman? Um... not as far as I can see. 

[Melchior Wardell]

I was just thinking too, to my own amusement, that Crow is like double screwed by Kait's logic. Driven by a female and an assassin. You are a genderbending murderer in RL aren't you crow?! Hahhaah.

  I guess that is why I am so comfortable in the role !! LOL

[Xaz Elephas]

I played another game before I came to Sl Gor... SWG.  There was a group of dancers whom were irl all males. I had never really come across cross gender rp before and at first I was shocked but ..... not one person out of all the players in Star Wars Galaxies ever made one post on the forums about them. And yes sex was role-played there. I even asked one guy I knew had role-played with one of the girls/guys... he said, its just role-play. But that’s not really the point of my most. My point is this, about ever month one of these gender bender posts pops up and in other games I know and have played never has the community been bothered by it. There role-play was just as deep as Gor SL. Don't mean to offended anyone but I think those other communities, are just a bit more mature about role-play then we seem to be.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

I played another game before I came to Sl Gor... SWG.  There was a group of dancers whom were irl all males. I had never really come across cross gender rp before and at first I was shocked but ..... not one person out of all the players in Star Wars Galaxies ever made one post on the forums about them. And yes sex was role-played there. I even asked one guy I knew had role-played with one of the girls/guys... he said, its just role-play. But that’s not really the point of my most. My point is this, about ever month one of these gender bender posts pops up and in other games I know and have played never has the community been bothered by it. There role-play was just as deep as Gor SL. Don't mean to offended anyone but I think those other communities, are just a bit more mature about role-play then we seem to be.

I really think it comes down to one simple thing.  Gor is based on male dominance.  Gender bending seems to make that even more contrived in this setting than RP already is when it comes to sex.  I said early on in the post I have no problem with this in general RP up to the point of typing out a detailed sex scene.  Then I simply would not bother and if that makes me immature.  So be it.  Luckily there are also plenty of other immature people in SL Gor who also indulge in that preference.

[Xaz Elephas]

I played another game before I came to Sl Gor... SWG.  There was a group of dancers whom were irl all males. I had never really come across cross gender rp before and at first I was shocked but ..... not one person out of all the players in Star Wars Galaxies ever made one post on the forums about them. And yes sex was role-played there. I even asked one guy I knew had role-played with one of the girls/guys... he said, its just role-play. But that’s not really the point of my most. My point is this, about ever month one of these gender bender posts pops up and in other games I know and have played never has the community been bothered by it. There role-play was just as deep as Gor SL. Don't mean to offended anyone but I think those other communities, are just a bit more mature about role-play then we seem to be.

I really think it comes down to one simple thing.  Gor is based on male dominance.  Gender bending seems to make that even more contrived in this setting than RP already is when it comes to sex.  I said early on in the post I have no problem with this in general RP up to the point of typing out a detailed sex scene.  Then I simply would not bother and if that makes me immature.  So be it.  There are also plenty of other immature people in SL Gor as well so I am in good company.

How many female Storm troupers do you see. Star Wars has slavery. Most Commanders in Imperial Army are all males ok, they are all males. Humans are the #1 race.. others are considered less then and often enslaved. Gor does not have the cap on what makes it different what so ever.

[Kiana Kuhr]

People are discussing here not accusing so join on but please don't take it personal. I know what I think and I'm obviously interested in having a debate about it or I wouldn't be posting. I have to agree with you Xaz. I think that this only ever really comes up in Gor and people have plenty of OOC relationships in other RP too so it always puzzles me. The only thing I an attribute it too is to the heavy heavy ooc influence of rl on rp in gor rp.

Deception, OOC emotional pain, lies, etc. can happen regardless of gender and I reject any points made where such broad strokes are painted to say that all those gender bending can't play male gorean characters successfully. You are dead wrong and just as many actual men really are not that great as dominant gorean males either. Lol. So it has nothing to do with gender at all.


I will always respect anyone's right to play as they wish, so this argument is not about at all.

Edited to fix Iphone typos.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

How many female Storm troupers do you see. Star Wars has slavery. Most Commanders in Imperial Army are all males ok, they are all males. Humans are the #1 race.. others are considered less then and often enslaved. Gor does not have the cap on what makes it different what so ever.

Having all male players is not the same as Male dominance.  You seem to be arguing for the right of female typists to play male characters.  I believe some do an amazing job.  That does not however change a distaste for having detailed sexual RP with those players.  If they are so proud of their ability to do it then I don't think a Yes or No is that hard when it gets to that point if there is any doubt by the player.  I've never had to ask but others may wish to ask.  The player can choose silence or a response.  Easy peasy.

[Xaz Elephas]

How many female Storm troupers do you see. Star Wars has slavery. Most Commanders in Imperial Army are all males ok, they are all males. Humans are the #1 race.. others are considered less then and often enslaved. Gor does not have the cap on what makes it different what so ever.

Having all male players is not the same as Male dominance.  You seem to be arguing for the right of female typists to play male characters.  I believe some do an amazing job.  That does not however change a distaste for having detailed sexual RP with those players.  If they are so proud of their ability to do it then I don't think a Yes or No is that hard when it gets to that point if there is any doubt by the player.  I've never had to ask but others may wish to ask.  The player can choose silence or a response.  Easy peasy.

Not really aguring the point at all. Anyone can play what ever gender they wish to play and they do. Its very often done in many other games and no one makes a big deal of it like tis done here in SL Gor. There is no rule any where about this. Gor SL does not hold the cap on detailed sexual role-play at all. Since the birth of the internet its been done.  Anyway, Ladies, enjoy your debate. I do know those who don't care will continue to not care and those who do will also continue to stay with there mindset. I respect both choices. I just fall into the 'I could care less what sex the typest is' group.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

I do know those who don't care will continue to not care and those who do will also continue to stay with there mindset. I respect both choices. I just fall into the 'I could care less what sex the typest is' group.

I think that is the good thing about the thread.  I'll race you to the door.

[Xaz Elephas]

I do know those who don't care will continue to not care and those who do will also continue to stay with there mindset. I respect both choices. I just fall into the 'I could care less what sex the typest is' group.

I think that is the good thing about the thread.  I'll race you to the door.

*Does the gentleman-ly thing and opens the door for the lady..* After you..." *and he walks out of the thread.*

[Eternity Starsmith]

No one would fight, you know, if you weren't trying to control each other.

[severus koskinen]

I think this conversation has run its course, no need to start attacking each other personally, If thats what you want to do then take it elsewhere no one wants to read it.

This conversation is so old so I will only regurgitate what I an many have said before..  I have friends who are in sl men who are rl women, some told me in private at first, as our rp had turned into a friendship and we started letting each other know a little about each others lives.
But when that came out in the open they got a great deal of issues from people with a closed mindset and some even wanted to leave sl...

I believe you can be whatever you want to be in SL, when I log off I have my wife and kids,to me that is what is real. You think for one second I cared if the pixelated woman I met was really a truck driver from Texas called Ned.. or the guy I spoke to was really a single mother from Denmark called Phoebe?
If you do then its not the rp you are concerned about its ooc.. Do you have the right to ask.. perhaps.. do they have the right to refuse.. yes

Unless they are visiting Ireland and want to pop in to say hi I don't expect anyone to tell me who or what they are rl and no one has the right to demand it from anyone.
If someone demanded it from me I might just tell them my name is Tiffany just to see their reaction.
I honestly could not care less about gender, and those obsessed by it need to find something in rl to concentrate on if sl has become that important to you.
Those that say they got burned was it because the rp extended to something beyond ic rp?? Well that is life, people lie, people are gits and will lie if they want to.
I am sorry if you had bad experiences but that should not give you a right to need to know the people you meet on sim or you will refuse to rp.
 If you have to know.....then take a step back and ask yourself what is it you want from SL. role-play? friendship or romance?
if its the first two it should not matter if its the third then perhaps you are in the wrong place.

Everyone is entitled to disagree with me perhaps it is because I don't engage in heavy sex scenes as I have a wife and its just pixels to me so I don't take it that seriously, the sex scenes I do get into are for story arcs or just for a bit of amusement, but if you take your sex scenes that seriously and are secretly looking for romance perhaps you should be on a dating website if you want to get to know people that well?
I can understand if you just found out the pretty slave girl you just spent 3 hours with in a hot and heavy scene was a guy..and in all honesty if I know a girl was a guy I would probably if I am being completly honest not engage in serious sex scenes with them.. perhaps that makes me a hypocrite a little.. so I would prefer instead of asking to just *not* know.

I don't have sex with other men as I am not as someone said *into gay rp* and even seeing two men together makes me want to turn my pc off and look at page three girls till I feel my normal self again.
But I guess what I am saying is I don't want to know I don't care to know and everyone is entitled to their privacy. But hey I have many friends who are gay and make the best Hetrosexuals in gor you would never know...

As for a slavers gender when I was a trainee many years ago I was jailed and a female slaver let me go after forcing me to kiss her... so no complaints from me on female slavers!

[Tariq Xue]

See, where I feel that their is a weak case for the "won't do sechs with same gender roleplayers" is the very fact that you view Rp sex as somehow anything remotely close to RL sex. The very fact that you are imagining me turned on behind the screen, is, quite frankly, creepy. I just see it as pixel porn. I don't wanna know what's in your tackle box in RL because it has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on how my character will react to your character.

Do I go OOC with some people? Yes, of course. I talk to people as my RL persona in IMs. But, if you really need to know what is between my legs, i can only get the strong sense that other things about OOC matter as well and I just don't want to go there with the vast majority of people I RP with.

And Serene, even if you play in lifestyle sims or sims that are heavily influenced by the "soul player" types, I've know at least a few who were gender bending. What Lia said is exactly true. Even with voice verification, even with camming, you never freaking know so you may have already bumped someone of the same sex and never even knew about it.  

The real question to me is: why does it matter?

And Kait, I completely reject your notion that a female could never properly portray a gorean male character. That's about as ridiculous as saying that Hilary Swank could not portray her male character in the movie Boys Don't Cry or that a female author could never write a book with male characters in it or a male main character. I think JK Rowling makes your case wholly irrelevant given the massive success of Harry Potter.

Bottom line to me...you can do whatever you like. It's your SL. But don't kid yourself. You are not just RPing and there is a significant OOC component to your RP if you must know the gender of the player in RL. In my experience, this often carries over way beyond sexual RP. It often means the person has trouble separating IC and OOC in many different forms.

ETA: I wonder if a mod could split this thread. We all totally highjacked it out from poor Vega! Sowwy! But it is a very thought provoking discussion.

Just a few things.  Some will be directly related to your post some to others but no sense in making multiple posts on it.  Ive read the 1st, 2nd and last page of this the rest Im guessing is more of the same.  

Hillary Swank portrayal -  Was a good movie and I hope it made some people think about their prejudices.  She really never made me believe she was a man though

Harry Potter -  Harry is pretty efiminate to me so also perhaps not the best of choices lol.  Your point made though, of course a female typist or male typist can play the opposite sex role well.  Back before the voice and cam scene took over the SL "escort" business supposedly one of the most successful female escorts was a male typist.  In sexual RP I can see how that could work.  The female playing the male knows what feels good to a female and can use that knowledge and vice versa.  

I do reject however the posters view that said if someone prefers to not RP sex with someone of their gender as the typist that they are somehow not an RPer or somehow less than in anyway then someone who not only does not care but never even thinks to ask.  To me role play is no different then acting.  Whether it be on screen,  in theatre or in the medium we use here they are all very similar.  In acting many things can influence the actors performance and in particular their performance in a sexual role.  It could be as little as they had a bad hair day,  got on the scale and gained a pound or two and do not feel themselves as attractive,  had an intense intimate moment recently that made them more aroused then usual,  or had a level of attraction (negative or positive) that altered their performance.  I am sure there are actors out there,  award winning actors everyone here would agree are fantastic at their craft that would refuse to be in a role with a sex scene with someone of the same gender.  Does that make that person less of an actor?  Does it wipe out their accomplishments because they simply feel they could not perform the role in that manner?  No,  it makes them someone with a preference that may be different then yours.  

As for myself I am similar to Randal in regards to this topic.  I simply prefer to not engage in sexual RP with someone of the same gender.  That goes for both who they are on the screen and behind it.  I am not here trying to find a girl friend.  I however do use this medium as an extension of myself as many people in SL Gor do.  While I play a role I put much of myself into that role.  When you meet Tariq he is generally very similar to me except I do not carry swords,  am not an assassin and do not have a mohawk in real life, oh and I have only said "tal" in greeting on mistake  Yes I have done that a few times.  Rping here in SL and the phone rings and I pick up and say "Tal",  then try to cover it up when I realize -  laughs.  

Preferring to not engage in sexual RP with someone of the same gender does not mean I do not respect their ability to RP that role they are playing or dismiss them.  It simply means I have a preference and it is not to engage in sexual RP with them.  

As for verification,  voice is pretty 2010.  In 2011 I devised a better way to authenticate the person I am RPing with is really a woman.  She must send me a photo laid out on her bed with "Hi Tariq" written in body paint on her belly.  It really is the best way to authenticate their gender I have found -   Now,  some of you laughed and some of you have had a temper flair.  For those that have a temper flair,  learn to recognize when someone is joking.  I have never asked anyone ever for RL photos.  It is not my fault if they send them to me  (again,  a joke,  jesus quit being so serious!)