No Caste . . . hmmmm

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May 2012

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[Betony Baryl]

It is said on Gor that only slaves, outlaws and Priest-Kings, rumored to be the rules of Gor, reputed to live in the remove Sardar Mountains, are without caste.  This saying, however, it might be pointed out, as Goreans recognize, is not strictly true.  For example, some individuals have lost caste, or been deprived of caste; some individuals have been born outside of caste; certain occupations are not traditionally associated with caste, such as gardening, domestic service and hearding; and, indeed, there are entire cultures and peoples on Gor to whom caste is unknown.
Fighting Slave of Gor

I just finished reading Fighting Slave of Gor.  This intrigued me for several reasons. 

Lost caste?  I would imagine this means they were expelled from their caste by their cities caste.
Born out of caste?  Born to an outlaw/panther?
Deprived of caste?  I'm stumped

And the last, I guess I thought that those doing more menial tasks got lumped in with the peasant caste. 

[Revenge Sempati]

Here are my thoughts on the caste matter:

Deprived of caste:  This I would take as being expelled, having your caste status stripped from you for violations of codes or several other reasons.  Likely matters that are within you control but ignored, which resulted in the caste elders/council voters and revoking you caste rights.

Born out of caste:  Pretty much as you said, born to those that currently live outside the normal social structure of Gor, namely outlaws.  Or those cultures on Gor that do not follow the caste system, nomads, red savages, Torvies, etc.

Lost Caste:  This is a trickier one for me, and might just be another term for being deprived of caste.  Or perhaps refers to situations beyond a persons control like the PKs destroying your city, or being injured that you can no longer work (although caste system has a welfare system to take care of members in those conditions) since it was not your own actions that led to you being without home and caste. 

As for Peasant caste and everyone not fitting into other castes or that all menial labour falls into the Peasant caste I find that difficult considering have castes for Charcoal Makers and Wood Carriers.  Peasant caste to me are farmers, the lowest and most required members of the structure.  Without food hard for the others to survive. 

[Shyla Timeless]

Lost Caste:  A FW captured and enslaved (?) would in a sense "lose" her rights and status as a member of said caste, right?

[Revenge Sempati]

Yes, once enslaved you lose all rights and protections of your caste, male or female.  That is not to say that you cannot regain your caste once you are freed, several examples in the books that former slaves are welcomed back into their caste, but JN never really goes into the details of how it is done.  I would assume that former slave would have to petition the caste council in their city to be readmitted to the caste.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

Lost Caste:  A FW captured and enslaved (?) would in a sense "lose" her rights and status as a member of said caste, right?

Short Answer: Yes

Long Answer:
It is usually a very serious thing to  lose caste in this society. To be sure, not everyone has caste.  Priest-Kings, for example, whoever they may be, have no  caste. They are said to be “above caste.” Similarly, outlaws  and slaves have no caste. Outlaws are thought to have  relinquished caste, and, in a sense, thus, to be “out of caste,”  and slaves, of course, as animals, are “below caste,” or,  perhaps better, “aside from caste” or “apart from caste.” To  be sure, I think there are others who also lack caste, really.  Some may not have been raised “in caste,” some may decline  or flee their castes before the initiations, and so on. Similarly,  there are entire groups of people, as I understand it,  barbarians, savages, and such, whose social arrangements  are not based on caste. (Witness of Gor)

If you are freed in the future you could apply to the high council of the city to regain Caste since of course you have not lost any of the knowledge you held before being enslaved.

'Then,' said my father, placing his hands solemnly on my shoulders, 'in virtue of my authority as Administrator of this city and in the presence of the Council of High Castes, I declare you to be a Warrior of Ko-ro-ba.' (Tarnsman of Gor)

[Betony Baryl]

I found this to be a bit of an eye opener.  Like you said Rev, there were even caste for charcoal makers.  Both the quotes say not all within cities were of a caste.  Some things just didn't have a caste.  (heh heh heh  . . The caste of the domestic engineers) and apparently some even declined. 

Nice quotes Kaitlin!  You have supberb collection of quotes at the ready.

[pasy namiboo]

There are also whole cultures on Gor that don't follow a caste system. The Wagon people, Torvaldsland, Both of the Native representative Cultures, and although I havn't read the books with the Pani, I have seen some people rping Pani and they don't even seem to keep slaves. Of course I don't know if this is true from the books because I have not read them. It seems to me that the Caste system exists mainly in 'civilized Gor', but please feel free to correct my thought here if its wrong.

[Caranda Schreiner]

Deprived of caste probably refers to people who have been banished from their caste due to some crime or offence.  Lost caste is more apt to describe someone who once had a caste but is then enslaved as a slave loses their caste on enslavement.  Should that person be freed then they will automatically regain their previous caste.

Aside from the examples mentioned upthread other examples of people who have no caste are Earthlings and those born as slaves and then freed.  If you are born as a slave and then freed you have no caste to go back to so you would have to petition to join a caste.  Earthlings arriving on Gor have no caste and if they manage to stay or get free would have to petition to join a caste.  This is what Tarl Cabot does when he is invested as a Warrior of Ko-ro-ba at the start of the first book.  Jason Marshall was the other main male Earthling character and by the end of the trio of books involving him it certainly looks like he would be a very good candidate to petition to join the Warriors of Victoria but doesn't seem to have actually done it yet.

[Sahiela Lavendel]

Outlaw, comes from the Norse word and made up of t, "out," and lög, "law." An tlagi (derived from tlagr) was someone outside the protection of the law. For Gor, no caste, no homestone, no protection of the law, aka outside of the law. By Saxon & Norse law you could become tlagr by birth, or by behavior. Behavior that was unacceptable, but not punishable by law, often religious offences. You would be banned, often a greater punishment than death. Other such offences were, lying, cowardice, not taking care of those who were under your care.

On average, in Mycenaean Greece, less than 40% of the population of city states were citizens. In the city of Rome, only 60% were Roman citizens. Being born in the city of Rome did not constitute becoming a Roman citizen btw. If your parents weren't, you weren't.

In Medieval central Europe, where castes or guilds were the strongest, around 30% of the population was classified "penner" or translated into modern English, "Bum." The term was not used to describe a hobo, but rather someone without social standing, or trade. A penner was therefore socially below the standing of a serf, and far below that of a farmer, little to say about a guildsman, who could have almost noble standing, depending on his guild.

In medieval times, outlaws/penners were in fact squaters, who settled on very small, poor acreage, sometimes paying a rental fee to landowners, and working as day laborers. Other times, in times of war or famine, they would flock to cities seeking employment of any sort. They could become a plague for cities at times. Unlike serfs whose landowners had responsibilities to take care of them, no one cared if these semi-outcasts lived or died.

I think that is what John Norman meant.

[Taog Ra]

...It seems to me that the Caste system exists mainly in 'civilized Gor', but please feel free to correct my thought here if its wrong.

I'd have to agree, or what you may often hear referred to as "southern city" Gor.  But that term is misleading because the Tahari region is further South, as are the plains of the wagon people.

In regards to Pani:  They have FC's, they have "collar girls" aka slaves, but they also have "contract women" that function like the Geisha of feudal Japan.

So, back to the OP and overall discussion, I ran across something curious when I read Book 30.  Posting the quote here:

It was my understanding that a dialect of Gorean was spoken at the World's End, that the Priest-Kings had seen to this. By their mysterious power, and secret sky ships, it seems they had long ago placed Initiates amongst the Pani, perhaps centuries ago, who had taught them Gorean. These Initiates, as the legends went, had sought to exploit their prestige in an attempt to secure power, and had been done away with. The Priest-Kings, on the other hand, by various manifestations of their power, doubtless the Flame Death, and such, had made clear the wisdom of retaining Gorean. It was written however, amongst the Pani, in an unfamiliar script, or set of signs, as it is, as well, I understand, in the Tahari. Whereas a variety of languages are spoken on Gor, Gorean, as you know, is almost universal. The common wisdom on such matters is that the Priest-Kings favor a common language, as a means to more easily communicate their views to humans, for example, with respect to the technology and weapon laws.

~ Mariners of Gor (Gor Series Book 30), pgs 449-450

Now, this seems to indicate that the Initiates travelled the distant reaches of Gor to ALL lands and cultures.  So wouldn't it stand to reason that not only would the language be common to Gor but an understanding (even limited) of customs (the caste system) of mainland Gor or 'civilized' Gor, and by that I mean the caste system of the 'southern cities' as they are often referred to?

I mention this here because it's been a topic of discussion before and in other threads with related topics (caste colors, etc), and I usually went under an assumption that Torvies, while they do not abide by the caste system would very likely be more than aware of it -- if not from trade with the southern merchant caste members, then by raids and the taking of captives/slave labor back to their homeland.   And that logical concept could be applied to any of the fringe lands where caste is not adhered to, couldn't it?  No doubt the Wagon People who engaged in trade and war with the city of Turia would be familiar with the caste structure, even if they did not abide by it as their way of life.

Am I reading too far into it/taking the quote out of context?  Rigid interpretation of the quote is yes, but common sense tells me no.

[Aphris Myoo]

Yes, once enslaved you lose all rights and protections of your caste, male or female.  That is not to say that you cannot regain your caste once you are freed, several examples in the books that former slaves are welcomed back into their caste, but JN never really goes into the details of how it is done.  I would assume that former slave would have to petition the caste council in their city to be readmitted to the caste.

I agree in most of this, only the request to the caste council i doubt. The case of Lady Dina is detailed described in Nomads of Gor. She went silently back to work, keeping low profile. No mentioning that she put a request to the caste council. Better do not, because probably no one knew she had been slave, since that hat happened during a travel.

[Aphris Myoo]

In India, and that country has a similar caste system as Gor, there is the class of the Pariah's,the literal untouchables, the Dalit. Those are outcasts, and do the dirty work.

Originally the 4 main castes are castes of the invading Indo European Arya, Baratha tribes. The original Dravidian people had no castes, and ended up at the lower side of society.

NB the 4 castes of India, you find also in Europe: Bhraham-Priests, Kshatriya-Noblemen, Vaishya's-Peasants, Sudra's-Citizens)

[Mercy Riiser]

I think we sometimes expect (or hope!) that JN has this great plan for how Gor looks and is structured rather than the ever changing, sometimes inconsistent and fuzzy view that has emerged. I mean if JN was all clear about Gor....what would we be arguing about on gor-sl..? 

[Caranda Schreiner]

I agree in most of this, only the request to the caste council i doubt.

I agree that there is nothing in the books to suggest any sort of request is necessary.  There are many examples in the books of freed slaves immediately claiming, and being recognised as regaining, their castes.