Caste Leadership Questions

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May 2012

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[Betony Baryl]

In order to communicate some positions of leadership in SL, we have had to fill in some of the gaps not supplied by JN.  I would like to see what quotes exist to support the terms we use for caste leadership.

It became common to refer to physicians as Greens; when in fact there is no instance of a physician being called by their caste colors. (Green, of course, is much easier to type.  LOL)  Or to refer to the castes themselve by their caste colors; when it fact, I believe that they were referenced more often by their "name".  Caste of the Physicians vs Green Caste. 

Titles such as Chief Physician of Chief Scribe are commonly used in SL, but am wondering what quotes there are that designate these higher ranking physicians.  I have heard First Physician or High Physician (or First Scribe or High Scribe) - and were these two to indicate who had a seat on the Council; as well as, who was in charge of the infirmary?

[Rayzor McAuley]

I've seen "Black Caste" used several times, though I can't produce a quote to support it.  And recently someone posted a quote from Swordsman of Gor that used the words "Green Caste."  As for the titles of heads of caste, I haven't seen them in any book I've read thus far.  At least not to my recollection.  I do know that Tarnsman of Gor said that the council had elected representatives from each of the High Castes.



I followed him. The Chamber of the Council is the room in which the elected representatives of the High Castes of Ko-ro-ba hold their meetings.  Each city has such a chamber.  It was in the widest of cylinders, and the ceiling was at least six times the height of the normal living level.  The ceiling was lit as if by stars, and the walls were of five colours, applied laterally, beginning from the bottom - white, blue, yellow, green, and red, caste colours.  Benches of stone, on which the members of the Council sat, rose in five monumental tiers about the walls, one tier for each of the High Castes.  These tiers shared the colour of that portion of the wall behind them, the caste colours.

The tier nearest the floor, which denoted some preferential status, the white tier, was occupied by Initiates, Interpreters of the Will of Priest-Kings.  In order, the ascending tiers, blue, yellow, green, and red, were occupied by representatives of the Scribes, Builders, Physicians, and Warriors.

Torm, I observed, was not seated in the tier of Scribes.  I smiled to myself.  "I am," Torm had said, "too practical to involve myself in the frivolities of government."  I supposed the city might be under siege and Torm would fail to notice. - Tarnsman of Gor

[Reven]

This is the only thing ive been able to dig up at the moment. But its referring to the peasant caste leader..

"You are young, Bran Loort," said Thurnus. "You should have waited. It is not yet your time."
"I am caste leader here," said Bran Loort.
"The caste leader must know many things," said Thurnus. "It takes many years to learn them, the weather, the crops, animals, men. It is not easy to be caste leader."
Thurnus turned away, his head down, to tie his sandal. Bran Loort hesitated only an instant, and then he struck down, the staff stopped, striking across Thurnus’s turned shoulder. It had been like striking a rock. Bran Loort stepped back.
"Too, to earn the respect of peasants," said Thurnus, straightening up, retrieving his staff, his sandal tied, "the caste leader should be strong."
Bran Loort was white-faced.
Slave Girl

[Betony Baryl]

I've seen "Black Caste" used several times, though I can't produce a quote to support it.  And recently someone posted a quote from Swordsman of Gor that used the words "Green Caste."  As for the titles of heads of caste, I haven't seen them in any book I've read thus far.  At least not to my recollection.  I do know that Tarnsman of Gor said that the council had elected representatives from each of the High Castes.

Yes, I think perhaps the castes from time to time might be informally referred to by the colors. I can see that happening.  And it's my understanding that the usage of Green Caste (in Swordsman of Gor) was it's first instance in the books; hitherto always being called the Caste of Physicians.  I confess, that while I have a sizeable collection of quotes related to my field of interest; But I've acquired none that point to the way titles were expressed for the leaders.

This is the only thing ive been able to dig up at the moment. But its referring to the peasant caste leader..

"You are young, Bran Loort," said Thurnus. "You should have waited. It is not yet your time."
"I am caste leader here," said Bran Loort.
"The caste leader must know many things," said Thurnus. "It takes many years to learn them, the weather, the crops, animals, men. It is not easy to be caste leader."
Thurnus turned away, his head down, to tie his sandal. Bran Loort hesitated only an instant, and then he struck down, the staff stopped, striking across Thurnus’s turned shoulder. It had been like striking a rock. Bran Loort stepped back.
"Too, to earn the respect of peasants," said Thurnus, straightening up, retrieving his staff, his sandal tied, "the caste leader should be strong."
Bran Loort was white-faced.
Slave Girl

I do recollect reading this; but took this more as an informal statement that one was a leader, rather than of titling?   What do you all think? 


Perhaps this is not of paramont importance; but I do have a penchant for trying to be as BTB as we can.  And if our SL created "titles" are a needful convention because none were stated; then I'm happy to move on.  It's just that next year  . . . will Chief Scribe or Physician be met with the same attention that scribery, servery or chilla now get?  chuckles! 

Note: Edited some grammar and added (Swordsman of Gor) in my first paragraph.

[Rayzor McAuley]

I've seen "Black Caste" used several times, though I can't produce a quote to support it.  And recently someone posted a quote from Swordsman of Gor that used the words "Green Caste."  As for the titles of heads of caste, I haven't seen them in any book I've read thus far.  At least not to my recollection.  I do know that Tarnsman of Gor said that the council had elected representatives from each of the High Castes.

Yes, I think perhaps the castes from time to time might be informally referred to by the colors. I can see that happening.  And it's my understanding that the usage of Green Caste was it's first instance in the books; hitherto always being called the Caste of Physicians.  I confess, that while I have a sizeable collection of quotes related to my field of interest; I've acquired none that point to the way titles were expressed for the leaders.

This is the only thing ive been able to dig up at the moment. But its referring to the peasant caste leader..

"You are young, Bran Loort," said Thurnus. "You should have waited. It is not yet your time."
"I am caste leader here," said Bran Loort.
"The caste leader must know many things," said Thurnus. "It takes many years to learn them, the weather, the crops, animals, men. It is not easy to be caste leader."
Thurnus turned away, his head down, to tie his sandal. Bran Loort hesitated only an instant, and then he struck down, the staff stopped, striking across Thurnus’s turned shoulder. It had been like striking a rock. Bran Loort stepped back.
"Too, to earn the respect of peasants," said Thurnus, straightening up, retrieving his staff, his sandal tied, "the caste leader should be strong."
Bran Loort was white-faced.
Slave Girl

I do recollect reading this; but took this more as an informal statement that one was a leader, rather than of titling?   What do you all think? 


Perhaps this is not of paramont importance; but I do have a penchant for trying to be as BTB as we can.  And if our SL created "titles" are a needful convention because known were stated; then I'm happy to move on.  It's just that next year  . . . will Chief Scribe or Physician be met with the same attention that scribery, servery or chilla now get?  chuckles!   

I think that's a very valid assumption.  I mean, if there are "proper" titles to use for caste leaders, they should be used.  If not, then conventions are reasonable.  I, for one, am glad to see the title "Thane" beginning to fall by the wayside, because Norman already gave us two titles by which a leader of a community of Torvaldslanders could go by...."Jarl" or "Chieftain."

[Xaz Elephas]

In Swordsman a few times he calls Black Caste, those of the dark caste.  And Black Caste as well:

Seldom did those of the dark caste drink ka-la-na or paga. The eye must be sharp, the senses acute, the hand steady. The hunt must be cold, passionless, rational, deliberate, relentless. Seldom did they recreate themselves with the bodies of slaves. Muchly they stayed to themselves. Each seemed to dwell in the cave of his own intent, as though in a cell, a cell in a large, dark, walled household, from whose gates he might emerge, a grayness at dawn, an enigma at noon, a darkness in the darkness of the night.

Swordsmen of Gor

I thought of the assassins of the medieval Middle East. The caste of assassins was quite different. They were not dupes, fools, madmen, too stupid to understand how they had been manipulated by others, young men drunk with the wine of death, who think they will somehow thrive in the cities of dust. Against such mindless puppets, such naive fools, such lunatics, manipulated by those who send them forth, sitting safe in their mountain fastness, safe in their lair of prevarication and deceit, it is difficult to defend oneself. But the Gorean Assassin, he of the Black Caste, is not a naive, twisted, deluded, managed beast serving the purposes of others, but a professional killer. He wishes to kill and vanish, to live, to kill again. Otherwise he is no more than a clumsy oaf, a failure, having accomplished no more than might have a desperate, simple, misguided fool. If he himself dies, he has botched his work, he has failed, he has shamed his caste.

Swordsmen of Gor - page 602

[Dren Bernard]

“You seem to me, from what I have seen and heard,” I said, “a skilled Physician.”
He handed me the second cup, though I wore the black tunic.
“In the fourth and fifth year of the reign of Marlenus,” said he, regarding me evenly, “I was first in my caste in Ar.”
I took a swallow.
“Then,” said I, “you discovered paga?”
“No,” said he.
“A girl?” I asked.
“No,” said Flaminius, smiling. “No.”
He took another swallow. “I thought to find,” said he, “an immunization against Dar-Kosis.”
“Dar-Kosis is incurable,” I said.

This would indicate that "first in caste" was meaningful. I think that a First Physician would be foremost in a position of clinical or caste leadership. The clinic manager position could be done by the same person but in a bigger city would not have to be. Some cities have Physicians working for different houses, caste leadership would be to head the interests of the caste, not of a certain employer. Standards of care, training, admission to and dismissal from the caste would be the main areas concerned, much like the medieval guilds in Europe.

[Caranda Schreiner]

That same scene where Flaminius and Tarl are discussing his research into Dar-Kosis goes on a bit later:

For many years,” said Flaminius, “and this was even before 10,110, the year of Pa-Kur and his horde, I and others worked secretly in the Cylinder of Physicians. We devoted our time, those Ahn in the day in which we could work, to study, research, test and experiment. Unfortunately, for spite and for gold, word of our work was brought to the High Initiate, by a minor Physician discharged from our staff for incompetence. The Cylinder of Initiates demanded that the High Council of the Caste of Physicians put an end to our work, not only that it be discontinued but that our results to that date be destroyed. The Physicians, I am pleased to say, stood with us.

So it would seem that within the Physician's caste there is a High Council, perhaps a High Physician is someone who belongs to this caste council?  In addition to this council there are of course also those Physicians chosen to represent their caste on the City Council.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

That same scene where Flaminius and Tarl are discussing his research into Dar-Kosis goes on a bit later:

For many years,” said Flaminius, “and this was even before 10,110, the year of Pa-Kur and his horde, I and others worked secretly in the Cylinder of Physicians. We devoted our time, those Ahn in the day in which we could work, to study, research, test and experiment. Unfortunately, for spite and for gold, word of our work was brought to the High Initiate, by a minor Physician discharged from our staff for incompetence. The Cylinder of Initiates demanded that the High Council of the Caste of Physicians put an end to our work, not only that it be discontinued but that our results to that date be destroyed. The Physicians, I am pleased to say, stood with us.

So it would seem that within the Physician's caste there is a High Council, perhaps a High Physician is someone who belongs to this caste council?  In addition to this council there are of course also those Physicians chosen to represent their caste on the City Council.

That is my thinking as well.  It would be First Physician of "XYZ" or High Physician of "XYZ".  Both have support in the books rather than simply pulling "Head" or "Chief" into the equation.  I have never been a fan of either since the same people who use them will complain about the leadership titles of Panther Girls being an onlinism.  Same thing.

[Trenzos Dyrssen]

Well, I always thought it should be High Scribe or High Physician, mainly because there's only one instance in the books in where they showed a leader of a Caste with his title and that was Om, the High Initiate of Ar.


One could argue about caste leader or even Master Assassin. i.e. Master Scribe, Master Builder, etc, but since those two are related to low castes, the whole structure is different. The high caste and low caste are very different, not only in status but also organisation and such.

[Rayzor McAuley]

That same scene where Flaminius and Tarl are discussing his research into Dar-Kosis goes on a bit later:

For many years,” said Flaminius, “and this was even before 10,110, the year of Pa-Kur and his horde, I and others worked secretly in the Cylinder of Physicians. We devoted our time, those Ahn in the day in which we could work, to study, research, test and experiment. Unfortunately, for spite and for gold, word of our work was brought to the High Initiate, by a minor Physician discharged from our staff for incompetence. The Cylinder of Initiates demanded that the High Council of the Caste of Physicians put an end to our work, not only that it be discontinued but that our results to that date be destroyed. The Physicians, I am pleased to say, stood with us.

So it would seem that within the Physician's caste there is a High Council, perhaps a High Physician is someone who belongs to this caste council?  In addition to this council there are of course also those Physicians chosen to represent their caste on the City Council.

That is my thinking as well.  It would be First Physician of "XYZ" or High Physician of "XYZ".  Both have support in the books rather than simply pulling "Head" or "Chief" into the equation.  I have never been a fan of either since the same people who use them will complain about the leadership titles of Panther Girls being an onlinism.  Same thing.

But then there is always the argument that the words "Chief" and "Head" are synonyms for "Lead(er)(ing)," "First," and "High(est)."

Main Entry:    chief
Part of Speech:    adjective
Definition:    most important, essential
Synonyms:    arch, capital, cardinal, central, champion, consequential, controlling, crucial, effective, especial, first, foremost, grand, head, highest, key, leading, main, major, momentous, number one, outstanding, paramount, potent, predominant, preeminent, premier, primal, primary, prime, principal, ruling, significant, star, stellar, superior, supreme, telling, uppermost, vital, weighty

And when that is taken into consideration, it brings back memories of the long standing argument for and against using "aye" to say "yes," which is acceptable for some English dialects.  Then, if you say that someone cannot say "aye" on an English sim, that's basically like saying that you can't say "Ja" on a German sim or "Oui" on a French sim, and so forth.

[Rayzor McAuley]

Well, I always thought it should be High Scribe or High Physician, mainly because there's only one instance in the books in where they showed a leader of a Caste with his title and that was Om, the High Initiate of Ar.


One could argue about caste leader or even Master Assassin. i.e. Master Scribe, Master Builder, etc, but since those two are related to low castes, the whole structure is different. The high caste and low caste are very different, not only in status but also organisation and such.

Don't forget about the High Initiate of Kassau who claimed spiritual sovereignty over Torvaldsland.....even though he was never given a name.

[Trenzos Dyrssen]

Oh yeah, him too. Kind of gives even more evidence for the title 'High'.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

That same scene where Flaminius and Tarl are discussing his research into Dar-Kosis goes on a bit later:

For many years,” said Flaminius, “and this was even before 10,110, the year of Pa-Kur and his horde, I and others worked secretly in the Cylinder of Physicians. We devoted our time, those Ahn in the day in which we could work, to study, research, test and experiment. Unfortunately, for spite and for gold, word of our work was brought to the High Initiate, by a minor Physician discharged from our staff for incompetence. The Cylinder of Initiates demanded that the High Council of the Caste of Physicians put an end to our work, not only that it be discontinued but that our results to that date be destroyed. The Physicians, I am pleased to say, stood with us.

So it would seem that within the Physician's caste there is a High Council, perhaps a High Physician is someone who belongs to this caste council?  In addition to this council there are of course also those Physicians chosen to represent their caste on the City Council.

That is my thinking as well.  It would be First Physician of "XYZ" or High Physician of "XYZ".  Both have support in the books rather than simply pulling "Head" or "Chief" into the equation.  I have never been a fan of either since the same people who use them will complain about the leadership titles of Panther Girls being an onlinism.  Same thing.

But then there is always the argument that the words "Chief" and "Head" are synonyms for "Lead(er)(ing)," "First," and "High(est)."

Main Entry:    chief
Part of Speech:    adjective
Definition:    most important, essential
Synonyms:    arch, capital, cardinal, central, champion, consequential, controlling, crucial, effective, especial, first, foremost, grand, head, highest, key, leading, main, major, momentous, number one, outstanding, paramount, potent, predominant, preeminent, premier, primal, primary, prime, principal, ruling, significant, star, stellar, superior, supreme, telling, uppermost, vital, weighty

And when that is taken into consideration, it brings back memories of the long standing argument for and against using "aye" to say "yes," which is acceptable for some English dialects.  Then, if you say that someone cannot say "aye" on an English sim, that's basically like saying that you can't say "Ja" on a German sim or "Oui" on a French sim, and so forth.

I'd rather stick to a structure that seems to be supported by the books.  It is actually what is written in the Caste Codes and Information for the T&S Physicians Code.

4.)  The Caste of Physicians is based on a hierarchical system within the cities.

In the fourth and fifth year of the reign of Marlenus, said he, regarding me evenly, “I was first in my caste in Ar.” (Assassins of Gor)

[Trenzos Dyrssen]

Kaitlin, that might not actually refer to a leader, but the most skilled Physician. Just like the whole concept of first sword, so there is some ambiguity there.