Gay/Les Gor Play

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Spirit Lapis]

Far too often, people cry BTB like the books were some kinda bible. John Norman was a poor writer, although I enjoyed the books, admittedly, they were hard to comprehend sometimes, and they were often contradicting to himself. He'd say one thing in say book 4, then by book 10 it'd changed completely into something different when desribing the same thing.  Anyhow, As for Gays being in BTB Gor sim, and roleplaying as gay characters... why not? Just because the subject wasn't particularly pressed on as much as other things, does not by any means make it not possible.

What it comes down to, is people behind the screens who are homophobic. You might cry out its not the case but trust me, more often then not, this IS in fact the case.  I remember roleplaying once as the bisexual slave I am, and yes IC and OOC I am bisexual although OOC I lean more towards women, and IC I just dont furr - which gets me past having to deal with Men sexually... I've had people come upto me *IC* and start dissing me, i've even been whipped to try get my 'mind off women'... and then dissed out by these same people in IM calling me a fag, unnatural, and that I should go play some disney rp rather then Gor because apparently being bisexual is such a fucking crime.

If your a homophobic asshole in real life it will show through your roleplay towards homosexual characters. Its just the natural responces of humans who hate particular sects.  Its just how people are. They really most often then not, cant help themselves.

That being said... should gay characters be permitted in BTB Gor? Yes why the fuck not. It was in the books, they were viewed as odd sure, but this does not mean there was homophobia upon Gor.  I would say it was more like, viewing those you fail to understand, or seeing something you've never seen before and it confuses you... you dont understand why they are like they are so your puzzled.... not hatred and going about calling them 'fags' and trust me, anyone call me a fag I will instantly AR them. I dont give a fuck if they claim it was IC or OOC or wtfever... the word 'fag' just like 'cunt' does not belong in gor period.

[ramond lax]

A lot of times, i think we still look at the notion of Homosexuality of Gor from the North American/European Mentality.  We forget that this is a different world with different culture.  To a Gorean Man, if he wants to have sex with a slave, he is having sex with a slave, it doesn't matter the gender of that slave, because really a slave is a slave is a slave to him.  This however doesn't make it the norm... Simple Biology dictates that Males copulate with females to reproduce the offspring in order to further the species.  On Gor, however there is also the aspect of Power.  The Greater power over the weaker power.  The Master showing the power over the slave.  The weaker slave being subservient to the stronger master.  Just because the slave is also male, doesn't mean that the Male master cannot hold any power he desires over him.  It's his social right. 

As for why we don't see a lot of Female on Female action, we have to remember that in Gorean Culture, Women are ALL subservient to men.  and yes, this DOES include Free women.  While they are still free, this freedom is subject to the will of Men.  In this Subservience, they are there for the pleasures of the Male.  In the case of Free Women this is more geared toward the family, producing offspring.  In the case of the slave, it is basically any form the man desired, from sexually, to simple house cleaning.  We cannot, however, forget that women on Gor, serve the pleasures of men, not each other.  I am quite sure it happened that a woman would have sex with another woman, especially if the Free man commanded.  I don't think, however this fact would further the notions of the books, so they weren't mentioned in them.

[Randall Reich]

Just one last comment here.  People are muddying the waters between their RL experiences with homophobia, discrimination etc. and the online fantasy setting of Gor too much from what I am reading.  Again, OOCly, discrimination and hate crimes are unacceptable.  ICly, Gor was not a PC place and Goreans didn't have much experience with homosexuality because it was so rare. 

I mean, think about it.  We are talking about a misogynistic, patriarchal society founded on violence and slavery with the equivalent of 7th century technology and whose people fought werewolves and worshiped giant golden space grasshoppers.  Expecting them to be progressive, cosmopolitan, open and tolerant towards gays might be a bit of a stretch. 

Sex with a slave too is not the same as sex between the free.  That has been established up, down, left, right and beaten to a pulp throughout the series of books.  Slaves have no choice in their use.  They must bend to the will of the free. 

While the books are not Bibles, nor always practical in the SL Gor setting, much of their ideology is very applicable and this subject falls under that umbrella IMO. 

[Violetta Daviau]

...
I mean, think about it.  We are talking about a misogynistic, patriarchal society founded on violence and slavery with the equivalent of 7th century technology and whose people fought werewolves and worshiped giant golden space grasshoppers.  Expecting them to be progressive, cosmopolitan, open and tolerant towards gays might be a bit of a stretch. 
...

Do not forget that the 7th century relates mostly to the Torvaldsland and Tahari regions. The central Gor is more of a state of Ancient Rome/Greece, and those were VERY tolerant to homosexuality, at least amonst men. Women were still to serve there more, be family and household conditioned, at least according to what is delivered and that I know about...

[Kail Lefevre]

ACK! You are all STILL talking about this!

[Tertionus]

ACK! You are all STILL talking about this!

Nobody is forcing you to read it, Kail. Last I checked, it was a discussion forum, and people are evidently not done discussing. If the contents of the thread offend you, as they seem to, AND you know it, then you can pre-emptively avoid any offence whatsoever by not clicking the link to it.

[Tertionus]

If your a homophobic asshole in real life it will show through your roleplay towards homosexual characters. Its just the natural responces of humans who hate particular sects.  Its just how people are. They really most often then not, cant help themselves.

That being said... should gay characters be permitted in BTB Gor? Yes why the fuck not. It was in the books, they were viewed as odd sure, but this does not mean there was homophobia upon Gor.  I would say it was more like, viewing those you fail to understand, or seeing something you've never seen before and it confuses you... you dont understand why they are like they are so your puzzled.... not hatred and going about calling them 'fags' and trust me, anyone call me a fag I will instantly AR them. I dont give a fuck if they claim it was IC or OOC or wtfever... the word 'fag' just like 'cunt' does not belong in gor period.

You're right about the  word 'fag', and direct, obviously abusive shit within this genre. However, I call bullshit on the first paragraph I've quoted above. I'm not going to state my own sexuality, nor how many friends or relatives I may have that are gay, because quite frankly I could be bullshitting and it's completely irrelevant anyway. But within Gor, finding homosexuality a little strange - even recoiling from it because of the strangeness of it - are not reactions that are out of place. And those reactions do not equate real life, OOC homophobia. SOME people who play that way will be homophobic, just as SOME of the general population will be, but to state that anyone portraying a homophobic character is homophobic is obtuse.

How do I know this? Well. Because I've role-played raping women. I've role played being in favor of slavery. I've role played class prejudice. I've role played cultural prejudice. And all of these things I find abhorrent. But MY role play, at least, is fiction. If yours is not, keep your accusations to yourself and others who shouldn't be in RP sims in the first place.

In non-Gor genres of role play within second life (and outside it), I've seen men and women of all sexual orientations played by men and women of all sexual orientations (not necessarily the same as their characters), and I've seen the most horrible prejudices, twisted murders or tortures role played (even people being called 'fag' IC *gasp*). But that's okay. Because some people like to write dark shit, and understand that it's fiction.

For REAL prejudice that occurs on an OOC level, even if it started IC - report the bigoted scum to LL right away.

[Kail Lefevre]

You are right. No one is forcing me to read it. In fact, other then skimming for replies to my post, I'm not. This has got to be the most pointless thread on this web sight.

Here is the facts. Gays play SL gor. They are here to stay. Deal with it. No matter what you, or any one else for that matter thinks about it in even the slightest way means nothing. I knew a guy that once started a group called " No, Gay Gor". I found him incredibly stupid for it and just to show my support for gays on Gor I started Yes, Gay Gor.

No matter if John wrote about gays or not. No matter if you think they should be have full sims with mostly gays and still be called btb or not. No matter if you support gays in real life or not. None of it matters. This thread is BULLSHIT, and a waste of time. Not one damn word typed on this thread matters. Not even mine.

However. Every time some one posts on this shitty stupid thread I get a reminder about it because I once posted my annoyance about it 5 months ago.

What really gets me is the egotism you all have that you think your words on this topic on this thread mean a damn thing.

[Tertionus]

You are right. No one is forcing me to read it. In fact, other then skimming for replies to my post, I'm not. This has got to be the most pointless thread on this web sight.

Here is the facts. Gays play SL gor. They are here to stay. Deal with it. No matter what you, or any one else for that matter thinks about it in even the slightest way means nothing. I knew a guy that once started a group called " No, Gay Gor". I found him incredibly stupid for it and just to show my support for gays on Gor I started Yes, Gay Gor.

No matter if John wrote about gays or not. No matter if you think they should be have full sims with mostly gays and still be called btb or not. No matter if you support gays in real life or not. None of it matters. This thread is BULLSHIT, and a waste of time. Not one damn word typed on this thread matters. Not even mine.

However. Every time some one posts on this shitty stupid thread I get a reminder about it because I once posted my annoyance about it 5 months ago.

What really gets me is the egotism you all have that you think your words on this topic on this thread mean a damn thing.

Do you have some special superpower we should all know about that make your words on this subject relevant? Some sort of divine right to tell people what they should or should not discuss? Some innate knowledge of what does or does not matter, or of what is or is not bullshit? If so, let us know, because from where I'm sitting you seem to have nothing more than an opinion, just like everyone else. But your opinion is attempting to derail the thread and to stop other people's freedom of expression. Which really is bullshit.

It's slightly worrying, if anything, that without reading the thread you presume it's full of bigotry and homophobia. It's not. That's not to say that there are not bigots and homophobes out there, or even in this thread, but your presumption is inaccurate and offensive.

FYI: No threads here mean a damn thing. What really gets me is that you think you're somehow special enough to stop the ONE that YOU think should be stopped.

[Liliana Aluveaux]

Now I am about to hang myself out to get massacred IC and OOC. A long time ago I tried out the idea of a female companion. She was a slave who I owned and just cared way too much for her to be at my feet available for men. I was interested in the thought to try something I had not really seen before. When I brought it up to a fellow citizen who happened to be male, he informed me that we would be separated and collared if it happened. Lets just say he met his end before he could tell anyone about it.  I ended up freeing her and created this fun sneaky rp of how this friend (my old slave) was to stay with me and live. The moral of the story is people's roleplays are their own. As long as people keep what they are roleplaying somewhat believable, why not just let people be?

This is yours, mine and our second life. This is supposed to be fun.

Edit: I'd be classified as bisexual if I chose to put a label on myself. I prefer not to since whenever you do there is always someone offended. Also, I love trying random and unique topics to roleplay.

[Bara Mayako]

The central Gor is more of a state of Ancient Rome/Greece, and those were VERY tolerant to homosexuality, at least amonst men.

I wonder if it is possible to compare ancient Roman and Grecian tolerance towards homosexuality to Gorean ones. Apparently, sex among men in ancient Rome and Greece was accepted enough that it could be done openly.  We have not only the texts, but the amphorae decorations that reveal how prevalent it was.  This indicates a level of acceptance, that would indicate it was not considered an oddity, as it seems to be considered on Gor. Examine the quotes about Milo above.  Tarl makes allusions to the relationship between Milo and Appanius, but the slave girl doesn't quite get it:

"Apponius and Milo must be on intimate terms," I said.
"Yes," she said. "The master treats him as though he might be a free man. They discuss matters of business and the theater. Even in the great hall, at the common suppers, he has Milo above the salt and at his right hand." — Magicians of Gor, page 310.
......
"Do you think that Milo finds you attractive?" I asked.
"Master?" she asked.
"That he would like to strip you, collar you and throw you to the furs at his feet, there to vent his lust upon you, his slave?"
"I do not know if his drives are that strong, Master," she said. — Magicians of Gor, pages 311-312.

In a society which is so open and non-judgmental about sexual relations, if Gor mirrored ancient Rome and Greece in the acceptance of homosexual relations, there would be no need to be so round-about in discussing whether Milo and Appanius were having sex with one another, and surely a slave girl in the household would have understood what was going on.  In this alone, Gor does not mirror ancient Greece and Rome. 

I think Norman makes his own views on the subject, at least as it refers to Gor, quite clear in the quotes that Syndel gave us:

"There is very little male-to-male sex on Gor, though it is not nonexistent. Its relative scarcity, presumably, is a function not of repression, which does not exist, but of neglect or disinterest, a function of the nature, and naturalness, of the Gorean milieu, the innocent, unabashed complexion and constitution of its culture, its sensual and biological openness, frankness and artlessness, the absence of pathological conditioning programs designed, by means of guilt and social pressures, to confuse, divide and alienate the sexes, and the abundance and availability of beautiful, needful slave girls, who are usually, for the most part, affordable.”
(Blood Brothers of Gor—Ebook, p.450-51)

 "It may be mentioned that, interestingly, since the Waniyanpi repudiate nature, and natural relationships, that there is, in the compounds, an unusual incidence of homosexuality, both of the male and female varieties." ( Book 18: Blood Brothers of Gor page 157).

The narrator attributes the "relative scarcity" of homosexuality, compared to Earth, to the absence of the pathological conditioning that confuse people and alienate them from each other.  Its prevalence among the Waniyanpi is attributed to their repudiation of nature.  In both passages, therefore, the narrator states that homosexuality is unnatural.  This is very, very different from the viewpoint of the Greeks and Romans. 

Norman's books celebrate a vision of liberated sexuality that draws on the openness and freedom that arose in the '60's, and at the same time, rejects the feminist viewpoints that arose in the '60's.  The Stonewall riots, which mark the start of the Gay Rights movement in the US, were in 1969, as well.  Yet he totally ignores, except for a couple of obtuse passages, homosexuality in his 30 books. 
He is inspired by Greco-Roman sources, yet ignores their sexual attitudes.  Where are the homosexual relationships between warriors, as was encouraged among the ancient Spartans to increase their loyalty to one another and willingness to fight and die for each other?   Gor is a world of extreme cruelty and barbarity and sex in Gor is very much about power, dominance and submission, yet where is the homosexual rape of prisoners and captives that has always been and continues to be commonplace in warfare in all civilizations on Earth?
A man like Norman, with his interest in sexual behaviour, would have been well aware of the results of the Kinsey reports.  Whether or not we now believe Kinsey to be accurate, he would have been aware that Kinsey reported 12% of females and 22% of males having an erotic response to a sadomasochistic story.  He would have not only known the well-known statistic that 10% of the population is homosexual, but also that 46% had reacted sexually to persons of both sexes at least once, and 37% had at least one homosexual experience. 
And, perhaps, just as his treatment of female sexuality and female rights in his books is a reaction to the feminists of the time, his marginalization of homosexuality is perhaps a reaction to the gay activists of the time.  The tolerance for homosexuality, in so far as it is present in present-day western society, is founded on the belief that it is not unnatural, that it is not a "lifestyle choice" but part and parcel of who a person is, and leads to it being to a certain degree open enough that gay people do not have to keep it a secret.  Apparently, even Appanius and Milo kept their relationship so discrete that at least one slave in the household was not aware of it. When homosexuality is explicitly addressed, as in the two passages above, it is explicitly stated that is an unnatural condition that is rarely seen in Gor. 

I have to echo Kait's post earlier: Gor is about male-female relationships.  Norman did not intend for same-sex relationships to be part of the story.  He marginalizes their role and calls it unnatural (at least, his narrator does; I cannot speak on his own views). He offers no guidelines on how to deal with homosexuals, because they are not important to what he wants to say, so there can be no proper BtB response.  But whether we treat them as an oddity or an abherration IC, we should honour the right of all players, both gay and straight in RL, to be treated with respect.  We are all here to have fun. 

[Kail Lefevre]

Do you have some special superpower we should all know about that make your words on this subject relevant?

Not one damn word typed on this thread matters. Not even mine.

I think I answered you before you asked.

Also...

What really gets me is that you think you're somehow special enough to stop the ONE that YOU think should be stopped.

No I don't. If I did I would be sending loads of messages off to the owner of this web sight trying to get the thread closed. I'm not. You are entitled to your opinion. and your right to share it here. Just like me. I just happen to have the opinion that this thread is a waste of time. I find that any one even spending one moment on this subject is wasteful. It is such a shame that I had to waste more of my time to answer it. Again, I would not care what you talk about except that I keep getting the damn notices about new posts.

[Tertionus]

Unsubscribe from the notices then, that you may quit disrupting other peoples' ongoing discussions.

[Caranda Schreiner]

Personally I find it interesting to discuss the references to homosexuality (and in the case of the lesbianism they are extremely rare and no more than hints) in the books and what Gorean attitudes to gayness or bisexuality were.  We should be able to do this separated from any OOC prejudices either for or against the subject.

[Sayrax wiefel]

Dusting this off, as a few are asking for quotes and such.


There is a topic on this and well talked about, so have a good read.