A FW with Child but No FC

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Mercy Riiser]

Simple solution for you, hire me to kill them both. I happen to be running a special at the moment, half off on the 2nd kill.

Ahh, good one Xaz however I am running a 2 for 1 special myself   Work has been slow lol

The lousy economy has affected more sectors than I thought.

Do I hear any 3 for 1 sales...?  

[Mercy Riiser]

There is no rule or law in the books, that I can remember, against free women having sex with someone in the privacy of their own home unless it was a slave owned by someone else (couching). As long as the woman doesn't show heat in public, she hasn't broken any public law, unless the place she lives in SL Gor has some specific law about free women and sex in private. If the woman ends up pregnant in the process of doing something that is not against the laws of her city, I don't see how that would mean she would then be any less the free women she is. This idea that free women can't have private sex or sexuality unless it is with a companion isn't supported, unless of course it is a personal expectation from her family. I would be very interested in watching the trial if there is going to be one. If I were said free woman, I would hire Janette as my advocate, she knows Gorean law inside and out and could make the prosecution look rather silly if they haven't dotted all of the 'I"s and crossed all "T"s.

The issue for me is not whether the FW had sex in the privacy of her home or not because that is not anyone's business nor mine as long as it remains behind closed doors....or curtains. 

I am trying to get some quotes or references - which I can not find myself - to use as a guide in case this matter is brought to me where a FW is obviously pregnant to everyone in the city but who is not FC'd and never has been; and who has not been taken in a raid and possibly raped.

PS - Given our experiences in RL, no man would ever ask a woman if they are pregnant!    

[Kaitlin Eiren]

There is no rule or law in the books, that I can remember, against free women having sex with someone in the privacy of their own home unless it was a slave owned by someone else (couching). As long as the woman doesn't show heat in public, she hasn't broken any public law, unless the place she lives in SL Gor has some specific law about free women and sex in private. If the woman ends up pregnant in the process of doing something that is not against the laws of her city, I don't see how that would mean she would then be any less the free women she is. This idea that free women can't have private sex or sexuality unless it is with a companion isn't supported, unless of course it is a personal expectation from her family. I would be very interested in watching the trial if there is going to be one. If I were said free woman, I would hire Janette as my advocate, she knows Gorean law inside and out and could make the prosecution look rather silly if they haven't dotted all of the 'I"s and crossed all "T"s.

The issue for me is not whether the FW had sex in the privacy of her home or not because that is not anyone's business nor mine as long as it remains behind closed doors....or curtains. 

I am trying to get some quotes or references - which I can not find myself - to use as a guide in case this matter is brought to me where a FW is obviously pregnant to everyone in the city but who is not FC'd and never has been; and who has not been taken in a raid and possibly raped.

PS - Given our experiences in RL, no man would ever ask a woman if they are pregnant!    

You seem to still be going back to this as a "legal" issue when it is not nor can it be made into one if you are looking to the books as a guide.  Now there certainly can be plenty of gossip and suspense around the entire thing and debate about potential caste of the fatherless child etc.

[Tertionus]

The issue for me is not whether the FW had sex in the privacy of her home or not because that is not anyone's business nor mine as long as it remains behind closed doors....or curtains. 

I am trying to get some quotes or references - which I can not find myself - to use as a guide in case this matter is brought to me where a FW is obviously pregnant to everyone in the city but who is not FC'd and never has been; and who has not been taken in a raid and possibly raped.

PS - Given our experiences in RL, no man would ever ask a woman if they are pregnant!    

Are you a magistrate? If so, I would imagine you wouldn't do anything to her. Sex in isolation of anything else isn't indicative of slave-like behavior, and sex leads to babies. I'd imagine it would be very rare that an uncompanioned woman would not make use of the available contraceptive (because children generally stay with the man, so a free woman with the "baggage" of an illegitimate child may not be appealing to future companions), but it could happen and while it might be a source of gossip, perhaps, depending on her station, it wouldn't be anything to be dealt with by law.

[severus koskinen]

It is a tricky one, and yes I believe reaching for the collar every time a free woman transgresses just adds to the... too many slaves not enough fw problems. And is not very inventive to the storyline.

From what I read in the books, and no I’m not going to dig up quotes but only describe a certain feel.
The free women, at least high caste were not only frigid, but those that were not companioned were kept in the dark about the pleasures of sex, taught that it is wrong unless companioned, covered up and protected so no man would see her  potential as a slave.

Unless a free woman was companioned and knew the potential pleasures they found sex or sexual behaviour uncomfortable.  Those that were did not discuss it, and I get the sense the sex was more for procreation and a formality to begin with, perhaps eventually a bond would occur that would develop into some true feelings, who knows that’s completely up to the people, but I believe for the most part companionship was for alliances, finances and convenience and children.

The men of the home stone protected her honour, what each home stone needs to decide is what does that honour mean?  Would her protectors decide not to defend a woman who had sex, as she has stained her honour and reputation?
Would it affect her prospects of a good match having known she has been sullied by another, would it bring shame on her family and would she be mocked in public? .. Yes

If the rumours and scandal reached a magistrate and council ears, or if someone made a formal complaint I can well imagine the woman paraded through the street and be flogged, did that not happen to a woman who refused to wear a veil? In one of the books.

If that is the case I can only imagine the reaction of the city to a woman sleeping around without a companion.
After all, slaves were for furring, and fw were to be respectable women that raised children, men would not have children with slaves as they were property, (another pet peeve of mine I won’t go into at this time) Goes back to having your cake and eating it.
I just believe if you want sex outside of companionship you risk being ostracized, your protectors revoking their protection, fw once your friends, mocking you and ignoring you, and with you in such a precarious situation you risk someone using this as a means to earn a free slave, since you would be with little protection or public support. Many would think you deserved it.

Another thing many seem to forget is that women taken in raids who managed to make their way home would find the gates locked to them as they were now slaves... Not something that happens in Gor SL. but something to consider.
Once a woman has been sullied there is no going back.. wither the woman chose it or not..
Would not sleeping with men outside of companionship be considered slave like behaviour thus it being dealt with as such?
Perhaps not a collar but a good dose of scandal and public humiliation.

You can't have your cake and eat it.  Keep your legs closed till you are companioned, however each city is different and caste plays a part, people might care less if it was a baker or a merchant, more of a scandal for the high caste women to be sure.

Shoe on the other foot as I often say, if fw cannot spice up the story line with scandal murder mayhem and nice new dresses and a dolop of jealousy and rumor mongering and not to mention those dam sharp tongues which I admit I love..  they get bored and start playing Lucy the slutty slave in the tavern of port muff, so we need to give a great deal of story licence so they can refresh their charachters and keep it interesting.


On a completly seperate note, if any of you are wondering where I am in game, my gaming mouse is ***&&^ and untill I have my Razer wireless mamba delivered you are safe, even the flirty non virgin fw.

[Mercy Riiser]

Thanks. Well said Severus.

We shall see where this one goes with rp.  I'll keep you posted.

[Nigaltwaddlesworthiii]

@Severus

While your argument is said well.., the situation still boils down to one thing;
 There is no legal recourse against a woman for having sexual encounters prior to companionship unless she shows public heat, or sleeps with another persons slave.

Your argument basically states that a free woman with children, or having had children, with another man makes her less valuable as a mate... I argue this is a false choice... The gorean practice of free companionship was not a life long commitment in most cities and regions of Gor... Free Companionship was a contract which lasted a finite amount of time, and if not renewed by one or the other of the two, was ended.... If we were to follow your theory, then any woman who had been previously companioned and then had that companionship ended, would no longer be desirable as a companion for another man..... I see no evidence that this was a commonly held perception... Free women and free men made contracts for companionship, and those contracts ended badly sometimes, just like they do here... Sometimes those women would find another companion, and sometimes they didn't... In my understanding.., a woman who has actually had children before is more likely to find a willing companion for child bearing reasons, because she has already shown she can have children...

A man worries more about the virginity of a slave than a free woman when he seeks that kind of perfection, as is indicated in the amount of money willing to be spent on a blood auction... If I remember correctly, there were at least 100 of those types of slave girls bred in the slave house in Ar specifically for their virginity in sex, and their virginity to the collar...

[Xaz Elephas]

This will be interesting to see how it unfolds in game.

@Nigalthwaddlesworthiii  What you say is true yet here you have a woman who has become pregnant and no documentation of a legal companionship and whom has slept around.  And also there is the aspect of the Gorean who broke a promise to the woman which I would see as breaking a contract which is not honorable of him at all. I am leaning more towards the man could be brought up on charges breaking an intended contract, possible several other laws broken against his homestone.

[severus koskinen]

Indeed Nigaltwaddlesworthiii  and I did not mean to imply women who have had children within a legal companionship were sullied in any way; the lifespan of a Gorean is far longer than what is normal on Earth.
If a woman had been previously enslaved, had children out of a companionship, and portrayed herself in a slave like manner that would make her less desirable as a companion, yet more desirable as a slave. 

It is a twofold ideal, you want your slaves like that, not your free women, else why have a distinction in the first place.
Although people say she has not broken any law, that is debatable, just because it was not clearly written in the books and at times contradictory, does not mean such behaviour would be ignored or accepted.

A woman pregnant with no legal companion and having not been taken in a slave raid, I know what my character would think IC.  And if I were eligible to companion she would not be on the top of my list. I would even instruct my sons if I had them to seek another mate.

A woman who has a few grown children and still in her prime is still very much desirable, as she has proven she can raise children well and maintain her respectability as a free woman.
As a man in my 200's ic that is the choice I would make, if I were not of the black caste, a naive child would not be considered my first choice of companion, but a woman who has a backbone and is a little wiser due to her age would be preferable.

My main thought was that if a woman who refused to wear a veil or acted flirty was stripped and flogged through the street before being returned to her family, surely a woman engaging in sex outside of companionship would also have IC consequences.

[Reven]

There is also the trend in SL where alot of the women end up pregnant out of Contract due to the . Short time of the contracts (some do 3 months SL = 1 RL year) tied in with an 8 week pregnancy Hud/belly Whatever it is that makes them know when the sprog is due. And with OOC fallout they end up pregnant and alone

I do remember back in Tyros. A woman was pregnant, her companion left her as she kept trying to kill of his slave due to IC jealousy which resulted in an OOC mess too but that was beside the point. The magistrate at the time vowed to look after her and make sure she didnt end up in the collar.

She ended up sold to some man to companion. He was paid a fortune to keep stum and pretend the kid was his. Alot of what was written into the contract. Needless to say the man was of course a little slow on the uptake but it did make a great story

And Mercy please keep us upto date! I honestly cant wait to see what happens IC

And Well Icly, my character would be spreading the gossip round. frowning at the woman and looking down at her, muttering something along the lines of "The Shame!" but being secretly jealous as my character is less desireable in the fact she cant have kids..

[severus koskinen]

If they have a companionship and he buggers off 1 week later for ooc/ic reasons she was still companioned around the time the child was conceived, although it might raise the odd eyebrow about the short union that also would be far more acceptable and fall on the man’s shoulders for abandoning his child and home stone rather than the woman engaging in legal sex with her companion at the time.

If the union was organised by the woman’s family they may feel slighted and seek revenge, and legally he has committed a crime.

If he said it was due to her mouth or her behaviour that he left etc, then still he might be perceived as not able to control his own woman and weak.
That might make a good story about warriors of the home stone  going to seek revenge on the honourless scum, or perhaps my own caste may be hired to track him down.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

@Severus

While I appreciate the sentiment you are trying to get across there is no basis in the books for what you are suggesting other than simply a free woman "is supposed" to be frigid.  Frigidity even by the authors own words is a lie FW tell themselves in order not to become "natural slaves".  The example by the OP should be rare but it does not mean there are any legal implications.  A healthy dose of public censure perhaps but thats about it.  FW in the books had sex and in some cases that sex was with FM without the benefit of companionship.  The IC concequence would be being collared by the person they had sex with because he realized he would prefer her that way. 

Sex in private is not "slave like" behavior because the author says that a FW can't have sex in the same way a slave can.  It is not public lewd behavior or flirting.  I find it hard to reconcile that a FW could own a brothel yet be arrested for being pregnant with no witnesses to inappropriate behavior.  The Jason trilogy within the series is very telling regarding the mentality of FW and sex.  Not one but hundreds of FW willingly performed as slaves for Clitius in Ar and it was common knowledge what his expectations were. 

“That is why,” I remarked, “that upon this barbaric world  the woman who cannot surrender herself is upon occasion  simply conquered.”  Elizabeth threw back her head and laughed merrily.  “Yes,” I smiled, “her surrender is won—often by a master  who will be satisfied with no less.”  “And what happens to these women afterwards?” asked  Elizabeth. “They may wear chains or they may not,” I said, “but they  are whole—they are female.” (Nomads of Gor)

[Anarch]

The problem comes with JN shifting his description of the world of Gor somewhere around the Jason Trilogy.

Before those books there were several dozens of quotes that:
- FW were not allowed to leave their homes
- FW were not allowed to own anything
- FW were fully dependant on their guardians or companions
- FW were raised in the high towers and rarely got to see their family
- FW were generally not allowed to talk to anyone who were not relatives
- FW were not allowed to have sex

Koroba was described as a rare place where FW had more liberties (along with the odd case of Tharna). (Generally hinting towards Koroba being more in line with overall ancient greek culture).

These earlier descriptions or references all seemed to have been whiped away into non-existance in the later books when plenty of examples of FW were given that contradicted all of the above...

[Kaitlin Eiren]

The problem comes with JN shifting his description of the world of Gor somewhere around the Jason Trilogy.

Before those books there were several dozens of quotes that:
- FW were not allowed to leave their homes
- FW were not allowed to own anything
- FW were fully dependant on their guardians or companions
- FW were raised in the high towers and rarely got to see their family
- FW were generally not allowed to talk to anyone who were not relatives
- FW were not allowed to have sex

Koroba was described as a rare place where FW had more liberties (along with the odd case of Tharna). (Generally hinting towards Koroba being more in line with overall ancient greek culture).

These earlier descriptions or references all seemed to have been whiped away into non-existance in the later books when plenty of examples of FW were given that contradicted all of the above...

Actually these are overarching generalizations that fall apart when applied to individual characters (much like what we play in SL) long before the Jason trilogy.  In book 1 Talena performs a slave dance for Tarl that takes his breath away.  Not exactly FW stuff since the cure recommend by Physicians for frigidity is slave dance.  Even generalities regarding the manner of dress fall apart if you look at the clothing described for Elizabeth in Ko ro ba.  The day to day activities of women in Ar also contradict the above in several of the books even as early as in Assassin.  Not nearly as stifling as those who concentrate on the generalities would have one to believe even if there are IC consequences for those actions when they go to far beyond the norm and they do not take care.  In the case of the OP the person who has standing to impose those consequences is not the city/community but the father of the child and the FWs family other than gossip and maybe even scorn.