Gorean women: haven't we seen them before?

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Shikhandi Panthar]

For the ancient Romans and Greeks, the high status of women, their freedom, was a sure sign of a people's barbarism. Today (and it has been so for a long while), the whole of North-Western Europe and North America lives and thrives on feminist ideals. This is surely one of the traits that makes some Middle Eastern and Central Asian people see us, Westerners, as new barbarians.

In John Norman's novels, women abducted from Earth (often WASP girls, incidentally) are explicitly called that: "barbarians". And, if you think of it for a minute, the society that is depicted in this Utopia called Gor takes a very radical approach when it comes to the status of women. On the one hand, there are the slave girls, that look something like this:



On the other hand, there are the free women, that would rather resemble this:



These images are at opposite sides of the spectrum and, strangely enough, coexist in the gender-segregating culture imagined by Norman. On the one hand, a fantasy born on the ground of the Western sexual liberation; on the other hand, the image of women who are smothered in their femininity on the ground of moral or religious standards. However, both are submitted to males domination.

This is obviously the way women are treated nowadays in regions like the Gulf Kingdoms (chiefly Saudi Arabia) or Afghanistan (especially under Taliban leadership). In these countries, there is no official women's slavery, but as a general rule, women's freedom is repressed in many ways under the dictate of purdah: they must cover their bodies entirely and avoid high heels lest it excites males lust, they must have a male guardian who "owns" their lives and oversees most of what they do, they must not enter certain places restricted to men, they should not enter the company of strangers of the opposite sex without permission, etc. And were they to break these rules, they would likely be stripped, flogged or even slain, on the ground of an honor code… Rings a bell?

Nearly ten years after Al-Qaeda's attacks on U.S. soil and the assassination of Commander Massoud, isn't it a bit startling to think that an american writer (and, to a degree, ourselves, who so fantasize about his work), in fact, is advocating that sort of lifestyle, in an age when a few Western countries are trying hard (sometimes paying a heavy toll) to eradicate it from the Middle-East? In a country where freedom of thought and speech is paramount, no one will sue him for what he writes in his science-fiction novels… but it's not very surprising he is stigmatized in most literary circles!

[Theoden Resident]

Yep something I've noticed for a long time and analogized.

[Bara Mayako]

It's not so surprising as you think.  A 2007 article on MSNBC.com reports that there were 17,000 women forced to work as sex slaves in America.  Europe is much worse.  A related article on the MSNBC.com site states that there are 200,000 women forced to work as sex slaves in Europe, a quarter of the worldwide total.  And that doesn't include the children who are forced to do the same.  In my country, the Netherlands, where prostitution is legal and is supposed to be regulated, it is estimated that at least half the prostitutes at work in the country have been kidnapped from Eastern Europe, tricked by so-called "loverboys" or brought to the Netherlands under false pretences and forced into the sex trade against their will. 

And that is only the sex trade.  We read about au pairs and maids in the middle east who are subject to slave-like conditions, but also in western Europe the same holds true in some countries.  The Phillipines will not allow their young female citizens to come to the Netherlands and work as au pairs, for example, because of the reputation for the way they treat their Phillipino au pairs. 

So, yes, perhaps we're not as bad as in, say, Saudi Arabia, where women require a male guardian's permission to work, travel abroad, or even have surgery, and where a woman has been sentenced to 10 strokes of the whip for driving, but we are far from pure on this subject.


No, I'm afraid, the Gorean belief that those who are strongest can force a collar onto those weaker than they are, is alive and well in our part of the world as well.

[Ina Anton]

Me and my partner are often discussing " logic and realism" of Gorean life, our job make us be constant in touch with fragility of human life  cause I'm ER doctor and he was a soldier,  what I can tell in this matter. Gorean  role play is  OK and fun IF you take it as role play ... cause  if you recognise difference between  plain fantasy and  view on reality is fine.
Now, and it is my very private opinion IF you start to take  fantasy novels written for fun and money only serious ( and not delude ourself  written pretty badly  and full of contradictions) and make it your lifestyle, you shall ask yourself a question ...
What you know of RL slavery to take gorean lifestyle as your RL way of life?

Do you like pain? Would you like humiliation? Would you like to serve for those who treat you like you nothing? Would you like to not be able voicing your opinion to be punish  only because someone can't beat you in discussion so he decide to beat you by sword?
As a man would you like someone  show you love and devotion only when you in room and once you left she show love and devotion to someone else?
Would you value yourself as a man knowing it is not your skills that make woman  whisper your name in pleasure but her "slave" personality make her cum even if you sneeze in her direction?
Would you like to be forced .. yes be forced to be violent you want it or not cause  if you not you are consider as weak and threaten to be killed?

Gor have some nice things, and I like to roleplay there, but for me it is roleplay only that's why I take it easy I not go on quote war not  thump on someone cause he is not strict btb.... role play is for fun and so it shall be seen ... if someone see it as his/her way of life ... well I've seen enough abused woman in my work and my man saw enough  violent kill in his  to have some disillusion that people can live like this and be happy.

[Sayrax wiefel]

Nearly ten years after Al-Qaeda's attacks on U.S. soil and the assassination of Commander Massoud, isn't it a bit startling to think that an american writer (and, to a degree, ourselves, who so fantasize about his work), in fact, is advocating that sort of lifestyle, in an age when a few Western countries are trying hard (sometimes paying a heavy toll) to eradicate it from the Middle-East? In a country where freedom of thought and speech is paramount, no one will sue him for what he writes in his science-fiction novels… but it's not very surprising he is stigmatized in most literary circles!

Is something I struggle with everyday, I enjoy this setting yet understand fully what am doing is wrong on some moral level. I go through bouts of self doubt with long breaks from this place at times. IT is why I turned to building and expanding my realm to outside gor, feeling it sorta eating me on the inside and wondering what effect it is having on my moral bearing as a person.

[Junea Demonia]

Me and my partner are often discussing " logic and realism" of Gorean life, our job make us be constant in touch with fragility of human life  cause I'm ER doctor and he was a soldier,  what I can tell in this matter. Gorean  role play is  OK and fun IF you take it as role play ... cause  if you recognise difference between  plain fantasy and  view on reality is fine.
Now, and it is my very private opinion IF you start to take  fantasy novels written for fun and money only serious ( and not delude ourself  written pretty badly  and full of contradictions) and make it your lifestyle, you shall ask yourself a question ...
What you know of RL slavery to take gorean lifestyle as your RL way of life?

I know quite a few people who consider themselves gorean lifestylers. None of them believe it is ok to enslave women, to beat them, to do the things that are described in the books. They are usually people who enjoy a relationship that includes some kind of power exchange. They take certain elements of the books and incorporate them in their real lives – in their relationship with the person who consents and willingly enters in and stays in that relationship. I think it adds a certain aesthetic, a ceremony – it adds something to the relationship they do enjoy. There is nothing wrong with that. Every single person I know who lives in that kind of relationship knows they consent to be in it – they might enjoy the fantasy of non consent – but they know it is not real slavery – because there is consent.

In my opinion – comparing real slavery on earth with the slavery Norman describes is never a good thing. It simply does not work. One of the main themes in the book is that the women who are enslaved find happiness and freedom in it. So, it is simply so fundamentally different – there simply is no comparison. One is a made up world who uses slavery to tell stories of intense love, of romance, of adventure – and a good part of it is simply the presentation of various kinks in the form of the stories and the made up world in general.
If I enjoy certain kinks – the fantasy of non consent, power exchange, and whatever else – does not mean I have to know about rl slavery or that I have to feel guilty about it. It only means I enjoy those things and I know perfectly well they are done with my full consent. Has nothing to do with real life slavery, with the abuse of women – or any of those other horrible things.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

Me and my partner are often discussing " logic and realism" of Gorean life, our job make us be constant in touch with fragility of human life  cause I'm ER doctor and he was a soldier,  what I can tell in this matter. Gorean  role play is  OK and fun IF you take it as role play ... cause  if you recognise difference between  plain fantasy and  view on reality is fine.
Now, and it is my very private opinion IF you start to take  fantasy novels written for fun and money only serious ( and not delude ourself  written pretty badly  and full of contradictions) and make it your lifestyle, you shall ask yourself a question ...
What you know of RL slavery to take gorean lifestyle as your RL way of life?

I know quite a few people who consider themselves gorean lifestylers. None of them believe it is ok to enslave women, to beat them, to do the things that are described in the books. They are usually people who enjoy a relationship that includes some kind of power exchange. They take certain elements of the books and incorporate them in their real lives – in their relationship with the person who consents and willingly enters in and stays in that relationship. I think it adds a certain aesthetic, a ceremony – it adds something to the relationship they do enjoy. There is nothing wrong with that. Every single person I know who lives in that kind of relationship knows they consent to be in it – they might enjoy the fantasy of non consent – but they know it is not real slavery – because there is consent.

In my opinion – comparing real slavery on earth with the slavery Norman describes is never a good thing. It simply does not work. One of the main themes in the book is that the women who are enslaved find happiness and freedom in it. So, it is simply so fundamentally different – there simply is no comparison. One is a made up world who uses slavery to tell stories of intense love, of romance, of adventure – and a good part of it is simply the presentation of various kinks in the form of the stories and the made up world in general.
If I enjoy certain kinks – the fantasy of non consent, power exchange, and whatever else – does not mean I have to know about rl slavery or that I have to feel guilty about it. It only means I enjoy those things and I know perfectly well they are done with my full consent. Has nothing to do with real life slavery, with the abuse of women – or any of those other horrible things.

Well Stated!

[Bara Mayako]

I'm not quite sure the OP was discussing lifestylers.  And, to be very honest, I myself don't understand what the distinction is between a consensual TPE within a BDSM environment, and a Gorean master/slave relationship, but I think that is a question for a different subforum.  I think the issue -- and it's one I have trouble myself with -- is, how to reconcile my own enjoyment of a Roleplay which in fact glorifies and romanticises an abhorrent behaviour that actually exists, and to which too many of my sex are subject.  Would/are there RL moslim or hindu women playing in Gor, when their day-to-day lives are too close to the make-believe world we play in?  Would someone of the Jewish faith participate in a RP based around Nazi Germany and accept the role of victim as we women do in Gor?  It troubles me.  And I look for answers.

[Kaitlin Eiren]

I think they easily could and I have known a few over the years I have played in the Gor.  I think their own visualization of Gor is so very different than what is occurring RL they can find enjoyment in losing themselves in the fantasy as well. 

With a history of slavery in my own background and the natural abhorrence regarding its existence and its impact that is still very real even today I don't have to push that aside in order to RP in Gor and find enjoyment in a slave role.  It is RP and while there may seem to be similarities between RL and the world JN created there is enough of the sci fi/fiction for it to be impossible to compare.

[Alleron Xaris]

Me and my partner are often discussing " logic and realism" of Gorean life, our job make us be constant in touch with fragility of human life  cause I'm ER doctor and he was a soldier,  what I can tell in this matter. Gorean  role play is  OK and fun IF you take it as role play ... cause  if you recognise difference between  plain fantasy and  view on reality is fine.
Now, and it is my very private opinion IF you start to take  fantasy novels written for fun and money only serious ( and not delude ourself  written pretty badly  and full of contradictions) and make it your lifestyle, you shall ask yourself a question ...
What you know of RL slavery to take gorean lifestyle as your RL way of life?

I know quite a few people who consider themselves gorean lifestylers. None of them believe it is ok to enslave women, to beat them, to do the things that are described in the books. They are usually people who enjoy a relationship that includes some kind of power exchange. They take certain elements of the books and incorporate them in their real lives – in their relationship with the person who consents and willingly enters in and stays in that relationship. I think it adds a certain aesthetic, a ceremony – it adds something to the relationship they do enjoy. There is nothing wrong with that. Every single person I know who lives in that kind of relationship knows they consent to be in it – they might enjoy the fantasy of non consent – but they know it is not real slavery – because there is consent.

In my opinion – comparing real slavery on earth with the slavery Norman describes is never a good thing. It simply does not work. One of the main themes in the book is that the women who are enslaved find happiness and freedom in it. So, it is simply so fundamentally different – there simply is no comparison. One is a made up world who uses slavery to tell stories of intense love, of romance, of adventure – and a good part of it is simply the presentation of various kinks in the form of the stories and the made up world in general.
If I enjoy certain kinks – the fantasy of non consent, power exchange, and whatever else – does not mean I have to know about rl slavery or that I have to feel guilty about it. It only means I enjoy those things and I know perfectly well they are done with my full consent. Has nothing to do with real life slavery, with the abuse of women – or any of those other horrible things.

Ina and I both roleplay in Gor, we do not see any conflict in that and in the reality of slavery. John Norman bless his cotton socks tries with his books to show how men are dominant in society, or i should say how men and women are happy with the distinctive role of strong men and the magnetism of such relationships, it is just a pity that it has to be with the aid of slavery. Let me just start with saying roleplay is roleplay and as such is completely consensual, but that does mean that we are just 'playing' at slavery. the reality we all know is truly abhorrent, it is a destroyer of mind body and soul, the atrocities in the former Yugoslavia show that and the fact such a 'literary device' was used by our esteemed author has created more controversy than perhaps he realised would happen, or perhaps not. Both myself and ina enjoy the fact that have a relationship that is reminiscent of good old Johns ideal, but the fact remains that truthfully, if either was to be a position that we knew of any such slavery we would move heaven and earth to stop it and i am truly thankful we both feel this way

[Eternity Starsmith]

Sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't.  

We're all just probably working out internal issues in our roleplay, trying to understand ourselves on some level. To one degree or another we cannot separate ourselves from the rest of the world's similar but more extreme issues, e.g. be perfect in behavior - practice equality of the sexes in all thoughts and actions - in order to balance or lessen human suffering on the other side of the globe. Remember "Eat all the food on your plate. There are children starving in Ethiopia"? You knew that was b.s. because eating the food on your plate didn't feed anyone except you. Likewise, if you left a few disgusting over-steamed brussel sprouts on your plate out of goodwill, no one mailed them to the starving children in Ethiopia, so all that hullabaloo about eating all the food on your plate was like a Matt Groening's Life in Hell tactic to manipulate you. The same logic may apply to our dabbling in SL Gor roleplay which leaves some of us with a question mark over the moral transgression of it all. I'm not sure it really matters. That's not to underestimate the power of our thoughts and actions on the world but I don't see the sense in beating oneself up over it either. Human nature is hard to grasp and exploring this kind of thing in a relatively safe virtual environment (as opposed to real life) seems pretty natural and potentially beneficial. Questioning oneself to a certain extent (with compassion) is healthy.

One thing I don't much understand is when people express great offense over the slightest hint of racism or homophobia in Gor while at the same time immersing themselves in an essentially misogynistic environment filled with rape and slavery. It's like one is completely unthinkable and the other is hawt, let's roleplay it. I don't think I'll ever get that.

[Alleron Xaris]

Sometimes you feel like a nut; sometimes you don't.  

We're all just probably working out internal issues in our roleplay, trying to understand ourselves on some level. To one degree or another we cannot separate ourselves from the rest of the world's similar but more extreme issues, e.g. be perfect in behavior - practice equality of the sexes in all thoughts and actions - in order to balance or lessen human suffering on the other side of the globe. Remember "Eat all the food on your plate. There are children starving in Ethiopia"? But strangely if you left a few disgusting over-steamed brussel sprouts on your plate, no one mailed them to the starving children in Ethiopia? That's not to underestimate the power of our thoughts and actions on the world but I don't see the sense in beating oneself up over it either. Human nature is hard to grasp and exploring this kind of thing in a relatively safe environment seems pretty natural to me.

as i said both Ina and i roleplay in Gor we just accept the inadeqacies of the books premise and enjoy the roleplay for what it is, harmless fun.

[Ina Anton]

The point of my and Alleron posts is ... gorean role play is fun  but if you try to implement gorean philosophy in whole as real life way of life you shall it was something written  for fantasy purposes only so till fantasy stays in role play and enjoyment it is good cause no one have right to limited  someone fantasy.
When it crosses real life borders and affect your real life  you should consider if you really enjoy all what gorean world can offer in your real life?

[Kaitlin Eiren]

The point of my and Alleron posts is ... gorean role play is fun  but if you try to implement gorean philosophy in whole as real life way of life you shall it was something written  for fantasy purposes only so till fantasy stays in role play and enjoyment it is good cause no one have right to limited  someone fantasy.
When it crosses real life borders and affect your real life  you should consider if you really enjoy all what gorean world can offer in your real life?

I think what you are missing is that you can only speak for yourself.  There are plenty who find enjoyment and fulfillment all along the continuum of implementing a gorean philosopy (minus the tarns and swords of course) in RL and it still looks nothing like the atrocities of slavery.   

[Ina Anton]

With all respect my dear but  I think you missing point, three pillars of gorean world philosophy is: homestone , caste system and slavery, if you call yourself life styler only because you implement some romantic power exchange vision of gor it is fine for me. Personally  I can not call it lifestyle cause it it like you call yourself vegetarian cause you not eat beef but pork and poultry is fine.

And yes it is my very private opinion of this subject and I'm speaking for myself  freely admitting that I'm person who enjoy idea of domination and submission, of honour and loyalty and that I enjoy role play in gor ... but role play ... and nothing else, I would not call few nice kinks  that enhance my life a lifestyle.