Free Women Wielding Axes

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Eternity Starsmith]

I'm reading Magicians of Gor at the moment and this one thing pretty much stopped me in my tracks:

"Once in Ar, several years ago, several free women, in their anger at slaves, and perhaps jealous of the pleasures of masters and slaves, entered a paga tavern with clubs and axes, seeking to destroy it."

OooooOo.   So. Free women in a city raiding a tavern armed with axes, no less. Axes! Not only that but it's described as rare but "not unprecedented". Any comments about this? I always have had the impression that would be unthinkable. In the book, the free women are disarmed and bound but nonetheless, they did it. They became slaves. I gotta say, what a glorious way to become a slave.  

[Rayzor McAuley]

There are many different things that qualify as an axe.  I'm sure what they had would be more akin to a hatchet than the bearded great axes of Torvaldsland.

[Eternity Starsmith]

If I ever decide to become a slave again, I'm going out in style.

[Anarch]

I personally seriously wonder where this entire concept comes from that Free Women can't lift a man's sword or axe, because it supposedly would be too heavy. Seems to be something that a small part of the male population in BtB Gor likes to keep enforced, similar to the "I can only be dragged by 2-3 women"-rule...

If the situation calls for it... Let them pick up a sword or a battle-axe and RP it out. Or do it in combat even... although I guess the men that can't be arsed to raise their meter pew pew skills would have objections with that. Insta-invincible man and all that...

Plenty of examples in the books of FW or slaves picking up a weapon they really shouldn't have to defend themselves or attack someone. The most known one Talena cutting of a man's hand with a sword. The less known one Poala in Beasts of Gor simply stabbing a man in the arm (who oddly enough in return was too scared to be angry at Poala for it... (Talk about ungorean behaviour of men in the books ...)).

[Rayzor McAuley]

It's very obvious to anyone who has read even the first book that a woman may be able to pick up a sword and use it, but that is a far cry from being proficient at it.  It really has little to do with the ability to lift the weapon, but the ability to use it effectively.  Free Women on Gor did not receive weapons training.  That's why I think that the mob of women most likely picked up things that were handy.  Anything from a heavy stick to a 2 x 4 could constitute a club.  An axe can be the size of a camping hatchet, tomahawk, or fire axe. 

The problem in SL Gor, and the reason that many BtB sims implement such rules, is that there are many women who are Xena all of a sudden if given the opportunity to swing long swords and great axes, which is highly implausible in an authentic Gor environment.  Sure, you can make the argument that men need to hone their clicker finger to be dominant  , but what you've never seemed to understand is that there is so much more to Gor than meter combat.

[Xaz Elephas]

Awhile back there was a chat about weapons and there weight. I googled anciet sword... medievil swords, spears, axes... and was very surprised to learn they  were not very heavey at all. I am not going to google it again but maybe someone can and post the weights here.

[Sayrax wiefel]

Good swords were light, agile, well balanced, and though fairly stiff, still flexible and resilient.  They were killing tools and their study should be approached from that understanding. A sword's weight cannot be judged just from its size or blade width. Thus, while the weight of Medieval and Renaissance swords can be accurately recorded and compiled, the matter of their being "heavy" or not is one of perspective. It is clear that despite the facts, regardless of the objective mass of historical swords, their "heaviness" is a subjective matter. The same three-pound weapon is elegant and robust to a skilled practitioner while his desk-bound colleague might think it ungainly and sluggish. The understanding we must have is that to the men who skillfully used these tools, they weighed just right.

Table One

Date(aprox)    Length      Weight    Origin    Wt/Lgth   Source
           (lb/oz)      (lb/ft)

9th-10th c.     30 1/8"    2/8      Scand?    1.0    Wallace
1150-1200        32 3/8"    2/10     German      .97    Wallace
13th c.         33 3/8"    1/8             .53    Wallace
1340             33 3/4"    2/9      French?   .98    Wallace
1375-1400        30"        3/0      French     1.2    Wallace
14th c.    29 3/8"    2/1             .84    Wallace
1350-1400        29 3/16"   3/3      French     1.31    Wallace
1375-1400        23 5/8" *  2/8               1.27    Wallace
1380             31 1/8"    2/1             .8    Wallace
1400             34 3/8"    2/12            .96    Wallace
1460             34 3/4"    2/15     Italian?   1.01    Wallace
early 16th c.    36 1/8"    3/2      German     1.04    Wallace
9th-10th c.     75.5 cm.   .5 Kg.   Nordic      .44    Wagner
9th-11th c?      89.5 cm.   1.42 Kg.          1.06    Wagner
11th-13th c.    92 cm.     1 Kg.    Prague?     .73    Wagner
Before 1432   41"      1/11       Italian?   .49   Tower
about 1480   43.2"      2/12       German?   .76   Tower (Hand and a half?)
about 1500   35.4"      1/15       Swiss    .66   Tower
                                    or Swabian
* Aproximately 5" of tip missing
c. means century.
Table Two: Shields and Bucklers

Date(aprox)  Size      Weight      Origin     Wt/Area
                     (lb/oz)            (lb/sq ft)

Leather Targets for Parade

1560         22 1/2 "     5/2.5      Italian      1.9
1560         22 11/16"    5/8        Italian     2.0
1560         22 3/16"     5/14       Italian     2.2

Wooden Pageant Shields

1580         22 5/8"      4/6        Italian      1.6
1590         18 27/32"    3/10.5     Italian      1.9

Wooden Bucklers

1600         17 1/2"      3/7        German       2.1
1600         20 3/4"      3/3        Italian?     1.4

Steel Bucklers

16th c.      15 1/2"      4/9        Italian      3.5
1600         21 1/4"      7/3.5      Italian      2.9

Steel "Shield or Bucklers"

1560         23 3/8"      9/4        Span/Ger     3.1   
1560         22 1/4"      7/14       Italian      2.9
1580         22 1/4"      12/4       Italian     4.5

Steel "Pageant Shields or Bucklers"

16th c.      21 3/8"      7/1        Flem/Fr      2.8
16th c.      24 7/16"     9/.5       Flem/Fr      2.8
1570         24 7/8"      6/9.5      Ger/Fl       2.0
1590         22 7/32"     8/12.5     German      3.3
1560         23 1/8"      9/0        Italian      3.1
1560         23"          8/1        Italian      2.8
1570         21 3/4"      7/4.5      Italian      2.8
1570         22 1/2"      7/1.5      Italian     2.6
1570         22 1/4"      9/3.5      Italian      3.4
1580-1600    23"          7/4        Italian      2.5
Post 1556    22 3/4"      10/4.5     Italian      3.9
1580         19 1/2"      7/1        Italian      3.4
1590         22 3/16"     7/7.5      Italian      2.8
1590         23 1/2"      8/2        Italian      2.7
1620         23 3/8"      10/14      Ger/Fl       3.6

Average of Historical Shields is 2.75 lb/sq ft, which corresponds to a 24" round weighing 8lb 10 oz.
A.S. XVI     24"          10/0      Caid Minimum   3.2
A.S. XVI     24"          8/0        Illegal      2.5
A.S. XVI     24"          6/0        Illegal      1.9
Note: Some of the shields were slightly oval; the average radius is shown. The last three shields are given for purposes of comparison.
Table Three: Maces

   Date(aprox)   Length      Weight     Origin
            (lb/oz)

1470       15.5"*      2/12      South German
1560      17 1/16"**   3/11      Milanese
1560      22 1/16"   2/14.5      North Italian
1540      25 3/4"      3/5      Italian
1540      25"      3/3.75      Italian
1550      23 4/5"      2/12.75    Italian(?)
1550      25"      3/6      German
1580      17 3/4"**   4/1.5      Milanese
1560      18 15/16"**    3/6.5      Milanese
*From the guard
**Haft
Table Four: Rapiers

Date (aprox)   Length      Weight   Origin      Wt/Lgth
            (lb/oz)         (lb/ft)

1590      46 5/8"      3/4.5   Italian(?)   0.845
1600      41 1/2"      2/13   German      0.813
1585      43 5/8"      2/5.5   Italian (Milan)   0.645
1600      39.5"      2/4.5   German      0.693
1590      42 3/8"      3/5.5   North Italian   0.947
1590      43 3/8"      3/2   Italian    0.865
1570-1600   47 7/8"      3/6.5   Italian      0.854
1600      42 13/16"   3/5   Italain    0.928
1600      44 7/8"      3/1   Italian      0.819
1590      41 1/4"      2/13   Italian      0.818
1580-1600   41 1/4"      2/13.5   Spanish (Toledo) 0.827
1600      40 1/4"      2/9.5   Italian (Brescia) 0.773
1600      45 7/8"      2/9.5   Italian(?)    0.678
1600      41 3/4"      2/7   Italian (Milan) 0.701
1550-1600   44 3/8"      3/2   Italian (Milan)   0.845
1600      44 5/8"      2/15.5   Italian (Milan)   0.798
1600      41 3/16"   3/9.5   German      1.05
Average Wt/Lgth: 0.82
Table Five: Two-Handed Swords

Date (aprox)   Length         Weight   Origin      Wt/Lgth
      Blade    Grip   Over all (lb/oz)      (lb/ft)

Mid 16th c   50 1/4"   23 3/4"   74"   8/6   German      1.36
1580      58 3/4"   19 5/8"   78 3/8"   14/3   German      2.
1580      50 1/8"   13 1/2"   63 5/8"   7/4   German      1.37
1500-10      44 5/8"   14 3/4"   59 3/8"   5/6.5   Italian      1.09
1530      48"   16 1/2"   64 1/2"   6/10   Italian      1.23
16th c.      53 1/4"   16"   69 1/4"   5/14   Spanish or German 1.02
early 16th c.   46 1/8"   17 5/8"   63 3/4"   6/6   German      1.2
Table Six: Halberds etc.

Date (aprox)   Length     Weight Origin   Type      Source
           (lb/oz)
late 14th-
early 15th c.   14 3/4"*  4/8   Swiss    Hallberd  Wallace
1500      16 1/4"*  4/7   German    Hallberd  Wallace
1593      23 1/2"*  6/10   German    Hallberd  Wallace
1580-1620**    31 5/8"*  7/4.5   Saxon    Hallberd  Wallace
1600-1620   21 1/8"*  5/5   Saxon    Hallberd  Wallace
about 1500   70"     6/7   European Pollaxe   Tower
about 1500   97"     9/1   European Glaive      Tower  Modern Haft
1500-1550   93.5"     7/11   European Pollaxe   Tower  Iron butt spike
early 16th c.   83.12"     4/12   Italian    Partizan  Tower  Modern Haft
early 16th c.   100.75"   4/0   Italian? Partizan  Tower  Modern Haft
early 16th c.   91.5"     5/14   Italian    Halberd   Tower  Haft not original
16th c.      80.5"     5/1   English    Bill      Tower  Modern Haft
early 16th c.   85.5"     9/15   Italian    Bill      Tower  Modern Haft
about 1600   80.37"     4/7   Italian? Partizan  Tower
* The head, in some cases including the socket. Four 17th c. halberds are listed with shafts. The overall lengths are 60 5/8, 85, 90, and 75.5 . The first is listed as an officer's halberd, and the fourth as a "Halberd or Pole-Axe."
** There are 12 of these, "Carried by the Guard of the Elector of Saxony; all of one pattern but differing slightly in details."



[Published in Crown Prints,

[Eternity Starsmith]

It's very obvious to anyone who has read even the first book that a woman may be able to pick up a sword and use it, but that is a far cry from being proficient at it.  It really has little to do with the ability to lift the weapon, but the ability to use it effectively.  Free Women on Gor did not receive weapons training.  That's why I think that the mob of women most likely picked up things that were handy.  Anything from a heavy stick to a 2 x 4 could constitute a club.  An axe can be the size of a camping hatchet, tomahawk, or fire axe. 

The problem in SL Gor, and the reason that many BtB sims implement such rules, is that there are many women who are Xena all of a sudden if given the opportunity to swing long swords and great axes, which is highly implausible in an authentic Gor environment.  Sure, you can make the argument that men need to hone their clicker finger to be dominant  , but what you've never seemed to understand is that there is so much more to Gor than meter combat.

Here's more to the quote:

Once in Ar, several years ago, several free women, in their anger at slaves, and perhaps jealous of the pleasures of masters and slaves, entered a paga tavern with clubs and axes, seeking to destroy it. This is, I believe, and example, though a rather extreme one, of a not unprecedented sort of psychological reaction, the attempt, by disparagement or action, motivated by envy, jealousy, resentment, or such, to keep from others pleasures which one oneself is unable, or unwilling, to enjoy. In any event, as a historical note, the men in the tavern, being Gorean, and thus not being inhibited or confused by negativistic, antibiological traditions, quickly disarmed the women. They then stripped them, bound their hands behind their back, put them of a neck rope, and, by means of switches, conducted them swiftly outside the tavern. The women were then, outside the tavern, on the bridge of twenty lanterns, forced to witness the burning of their garments. They were then permitted to leave, though still bound and in coffle. Gorean men do not surrender their birthright as males, their rightful dominance,their appropriate mastery. They do not choose to be dictated to by females.

The reason I re-posted the quote in lengthier detail is to point out that Norman makes the comparison of Earth men to Gorean men. Every man here, by default, is an Earth man trying to roleplay a Gorean man. Earth men, according to Norman (who seems to have a real contempt for all of you) would be inhibited and confused by a female attack of the kind described here. An Earth man, we might speculate, might not know what to do. He might stumble back, doubt himself, and let the free women take over. A Gorean man, on the other hand, is different. He makes a conscious choice to disallow the attacking free women to succeed in their task. What this infers is that the Gorean free women could indeed pick up axes and clubs and dominate men with them; they could succeed or at least they thought they could. However, because the Gorean men choose to master them, because they are Gorean and not of Earth, then the free women fail and become slaves. Norman hints that perhaps the free women unconsciously wished to be slaves all along:

Needless to say, in time, the free women, learning the suitable roles and lessons of womanhood, for which they had genetic predispositions, and aided by their lovely tutors, were permitted to petition for the collar. It was granted to them. It seems that this was what they had wanted all the time, though on a level not fully comprehensible to them at the beginning.

Untrained or not, a pack of axe-wielding women might present a problem for men. Surely she can swing the axe and surely it is sharp. Many people who murder each other with weapons on Earth aren't trained. They simply pick up the weapon and hack and slash whomever they end up killing. So, I think it can be assumed that the free women attacking the tavern may indeed have a chance at success despite any lack of weapons training or fighting skills, particularly if the men are drunk or otherwise engaged with naked females.

In Norman's world, the whole point is that the women fail and become slaves. Otherwise, Norman wouldn't have had anything jack off to while he wrote.  But think about it. Isn't it sort of ridiculous for a man to expect a woman to limit her attack, to not put her entire being into her assault toward him? But, but, but... Many men sure do whine a lot about Xena warriors in Gor. It's the man's responsibility to rise to the challenge. An Earth man, in my opinion, will sit around and whine about technicalities; a Gorean man would simply make himself a better fighter.

Lastly, I suppose, I hear a lot of people complain about fighting in terms of who is the faster clicker and how that does not equate to better swordsmanship in the real world (Gor). In other words, the mind behind the computer is not the same as the physical strength in person. A woman can have a sharp mind and without the handicap of being physically weaker, she may outrageously and scandalously embody the so-called Xena warrior princess archetype. We know Norman wouldn't have it that way. However, on the other hand, if a man doesn't have certain skills in the virtual world in fighting, e.g. a fast finger, then chances are he would be fairly uncoordinated with a weapon in physical reality as well. I honestly think John Norman might just say such a male is an Earth male, not a Gorean male.

So therein lies the rub. In order for Earth males to successfully roleplay Gorean males, as described in the books, the trend is to require roleplayers playing females to limit themselves. You get labeled Xena warrior princess if you put your full passion into fighting. You are frowned upon. Fingers waggle. And yet, any panther or insane free woman with an axe surely put all of her passion and more into her assault on Gorean men, who then turned around and dominated and enslaved her. So why is it that female roleplayers must sacrifice such passion so that male roleplayers don't have to hone their "clicking fingers"? Why is it that male roleplayers (not all) often permit themselves to be lazy and expect female roleplayers to limit their character's passion and hand them their goodies on a silver platter? I can tell you straight up I respect a man more who says something along the lines of "If I lose, I'm going to train my ass off until I win" vs. a red caste warrior who complains that females are too empowered but the only thing he seems to shoot is the breeze.

[Darkangel Mavendorf]

"The strength of a full-grown woman is equivalent to a twelve-year old boy." (Tribesman of Gor, p.223)

The books give examples showing the inferiority of the strength of women. Even the strongest of Gorean women is seen to be the inferior of the average Gorean man. In Tribesman of Gor, there is a masculine female slave who terrorized the rest of the kajirae. Yet, she was beaten by an ordinary male slave, not even a fighting slave. Mercenaries of Gor explains about a strong woman who no other woman could take a piece of bread from. It was stated that any man could have easily taken the bread from her.

"She was a large girl, and formidable to us, but, compared to the men, she was only another female, no different from us. Compared to them, her size and strength, really only that of a woman, was, like ours, when all was said and done, simply negligible. Compared to them she was, like us simply small and weak. Before them, and to them, she could never be any more than we, only another female, small, lovely and helpless, a mere female, totally at their mercy." (Dancer of Gor, p.107)


These statements apply to all men and not just warriors. The average Gorean man, of any caste, is stronger than any Gorean woman.
"It is nothing for a man to overpower a female." (Tribesman of Gor, p.143).

"The insignia of men," become empty mockeries when permitted to women." (Mercenaries of Gor, p.56)

enough said?

[Anarch]

4 one-liners out of 30 books don't really cut it when there's entire chapters commited to women wielding spears and swords (the several female mercenaries that were mentioned in Beasts of Gor and Tribesmen of Gor). Funny part is how Tarl, got subdued and captured both times by both of them... and then gets his ass whipped.

Above along with the other examples I gave earlier of women attacking men with swords...

There's a certain amount of lunacy involved in BtB Gor to express the same 3-4 quotes to state that a woman would never win a fight against a man... considering Tarl tended to get his ass kicked multiple times by those women. (Captured by panthers, female mercenaries...) The same Tarl who sometimes managed to kill several Warriors or Assassins in a row in direct combat...

[Daved Calderwood]

4 one-liners out of 30 books don't really cut it when there's entire chapters commited to women wielding spears and swords (the several female mercenaries that were mentioned in Beasts of Gor and Tribesmen of Gor). Funny part is how Tarl, got subdued and captured both times by both of them... and then gets his ass whipped.

Above along with the other examples I gave earlier of women attacking men with swords...

There's a certain amount of lunacy involved in BtB Gor to express the same 3-4 quotes to state that a woman would never win a fight against a man... considering Tarl tended to get his ass kicked multiple times by those women. (Captured by panthers, female mercenaries...) The same Tarl who sometimes managed to kill several Warriors or Assassins in a row in direct combat...

But wasn't that due to where these women were located and what clans they roamed with? I totally agree with the fact that there had to have been women that were skilled with weapons and I guess due to the circumstances had to wield them against men. By the same token I could see how this would not have gone over with the rest of Gor in a bunch of cities. The idea of giving a free woman the training to use a sword fir example would be a hard sell to pretty much any gorean man.

Ok so lets look at this OOC a moment. I don't consider the fact that women not being allowed to use swords or wield weapons against men something of "lunacy". This isn't to slam GE sims but let's face it we start letting this go down like it's a cool thing then we run the risk of letting a few more things go by until we have a watered down version of what looks like by the book. I used to be an outlaw and we had female outlaws there as well and at first having the extra muscle was cool but damn it wasn't as the books made it or it least not close to the spirit of the books. 

Look at it this way, for a female to be a Black Caste would be the single most ingenious concept. She would be the last person anyone would expect to be a threat and the last anyone would suspect to have killed someone. She could get in and out of places just being disguised as a regular free woman and the guards wouldn't give her a second thought. But it's not in the books and that's because the Black Caste would have killed her ass faster than the mark she was after. Same goes for the Red Caste, you know they would sooner jump off a cliff than allow a woman to wield a sword and defend the city, it just wasn't done.

About the only quote I have found to be absolutely stupid is the notion that a woman has the strength of a twelve or fourteen old boy. That is total bullshit because physically that just isn't possible that every woman in the gene pool are that weak. Oh and let me get this straight, you get some earth woman who was an aerobics trainer , she lands in Gor and now she is weaker than a kid? Come on!  To me that's just Norman's way of ensuring that the females in his world could never be able to rise up against men. From the books it seems that the only women that have half a chance are panthers and look what he does to them. They are outcasts , there is something wrong with alot of them that they have chosen their personal freedom over any sort of domination of men. So of course they are a little stronger but Norman of course launches their asses deep in the forest where they are sometimes seen and the men they capture are "weak men" or outlaws.

From a social standpoint I think it could be possible that there were women out there who knew how to fight but that wouldn't be the norm in the more "civilized" places because no man would allow it. As far as physically not being able to do it I have trouble wrapping my head around that. 

[Anarch]

I'm not saying it should be standard, especially not in the southern cities, for FW to walk around as if they're guards or warriors, although some exceptions should be possible imo.

I'm more bothered with the general attitude of starting to throw an OOC hissyfit as soon as a single FW with a weapon shows up on a BtB sim. There is generally nothing wrong at all with a single armed woman, or a single female mercenary.

A long time ago, a woman asked to become a mercenary in Minus, a generally rather lawless place that I could see not upholding 'too much standards'. And to me, considering that most mercenaries tended to be mostly a bunch of thugs or outlaws who just wanted to earn extra coin and loot from raiding, it felt somewhat in place for her to RP that role. I obviously also understand all the other complications such a thing would bring along so I can't blame people not wanting to have something like that on their sim, however... the RP to me felt authentic and in accordance with the books. And I still believe that single mercenary women are in accordance with the books. Especially if they are not very skilled meter fighters, or tend to uphold the standards of avoiding to win fights against men.

Entire roaming armies of them is another matter, but it's something I'm willing to look through the fingers, simply because I feel there is more acceptance for conflict RP and the overall grittiness of the books in GE Gor. But that aside as it's a bit off-topic.

What becomes even more annoying to me are tied up guys that start complaining that a FW can't disarm them from their weapons because they're supposedly too weak to pick up weapons. (Rubbish ofcourse since a lot of examples are in the books of FW wielding swords, and even a slave-girl).

[Xaz Elephas]

Last week a FW shows up on the sim. She had a crossbow on her back. I could have done the Im and said ‘... um we don't allow FW to have weapons here like bows, sword, axes…’ but I decided what the heck let me engage her in role-play and see what happens. So I did and in the role-play it came out why she had the weapon and I got to say it was very creative and plausible. Her role-play explanation was really good and I enjoyed the interaction with her. At no time did I draw my weapon nor did she. She role-played being timed about running into a Black Caste.  Point being sometimes before you so quickly Im someone ooc and toss a rule at them, take a chance, role-play... see what the story might be.  What do you got to loose? I learned something that day; from now on I won’t be so quick to judge someone might be breaking a rule. I will engage them and see what there story is first.

[Carter Ebbage]

This is where the fundamental issue of women with weapons becomes clouded and distorted between the actual behaviour of women in SL GOR and weapons and the actual basic premis of gorean women and weapons.

So step back... there use to be hoardes of women running around SL GOR like huge armies on the move. They called themselves Captain, Commander, General etc etc... these where not gorean Free Women.. these were women wanting to fight and create large groups to take on cities and men.

It also became the norm that when warriors attacked a city.. suddenly the whole population of slaves, Free Women of every caste armed themselves in addittion to the men that happened to be there.. it was crazy !!!

It became so stupid that an encounter with a woman claiming to be from Earth and she was playing being a  Colonel in the US Marine Corps and therefore could kick my butt with her martial arts and plethora of weapons on her back, made me decide enough was enough and I joined the BTB theme.

So dont confuse any rationale debate and quotes from books ... BTB was simply a way of stopping Lara Croft and her armies.

[dana Tehani]

Last week a FW shows up on the sim. She had a crossbow on her back. I could have done the Im and said ‘... um we don't allow FW to have weapons here like bows, sword, axes…’ but I decided what the heck let me engage her in role-play and see what happens. So I did and in the role-play it came out why she had the weapon and I got to say it was very creative and plausible. Her role-play explanation was really good and I enjoyed the interaction with her. At no time did I draw my weapon nor did she. She role-played being timed about running into a Black Caste.  Point being sometimes before you so quickly Im someone ooc and toss a rule at them, take a chance, role-play... see what the story might be.  What do you got to loose? I learned something that day; from now on I won’t be so quick to judge someone might be breaking a rule. I will engage them and see what there story is first.

well done Xaz xx dealing with things IC is the best way to go (most the time!)