Is a Free Woman any Different from a kajira

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Kafka Khaos]

Whoa, STOP! Before you start typing your angry response.. listen to what i have to say first.....

A kajira kneels, dresses in silks, or goes naked, and wears a collar because thats what men want of her.

A FW wears long frumpy dresses, a veil, acts prudish, and cant carry any weapon but a dagger, because thats what men want of her.

Theres no freedom at all to the actions or behaviour of a fw. None, except perhaps the delusional.

[Loredana Varonia]

ah, it simply depends on the region you are playing!

[Skye Gartle]

A Free Woman gets your children, she is your mother, your sister, your daughter.

The kajira is the mother, daugher or sister of other men.

THAT is the main difference

[Adoveea Rau]

Rolls up her sleeves:
Free woman makes all her own decisions and what she does or accomplishes
   Slaves don't
Free women own business, handle money, interact with whoever they please
   slaves don't
Free women can look however they want in clothing, weight, blah blah
   slaves don't
Free women can talk or not talk to anyone, and walk away from anything they don't enjoy, and speak their minds freely
   slaves can't
Free women can determine where they will live, own property, have multiple houses in many places
   slaves don't
Free women of age, determine who they want to companion and are protected by laws of a city
  slaves can't and have nothing protecting them from the whims of the Free
Free women can own slaves
  slaves are owned by the Free
Oh yeah, and what is soooo important in many peoples minds:  FW determine who they want to have sex with, and can even buy a male red silk slave for their personal use
  slaves don't have any of those options

and that's just the start of what being a free woman means.

Still going to tell me there's no major differences?
Arugements against this will get bombarded with book quotes

[Druhsus]

Free Women and slave the same?

I must have lost that memo or NC!

Dru

[Anarch]

Rolls up her sleeves:
Free woman ...

Except ofcourse there are also quotes about Free Women:
- Not allowed to talk to people who are not of her family
- Not allowed to own any personal possessions
- Being sold into slavery by their own family (father usually)
- Not allowed to leave their house
- Not allowed to leave the High Cylinders until she gets sold out into companionship

If anything the books seem to indicate that there were several 'cultural' differences between some of the southern cities. In Outlaw of Gor it was stated that FW only had exceptional freedom in the cities of Ko-ro-ba and Tharna. Then later this freedom is also shown by some women in Ar. But in contrast obviously the above examples are shown too, several of which also were in Ar. Which seem to indicate a different level of control which male guardians might wish to enforce sometimes... in the same culture or city.

[Adoveea Rau]

weapons,gosh I missed that  part
FW can can hire mercs/assassins/guards
  slaves can't
FW wear poisioned pins on their person and in their robes
  slaves can't
FW carry daggers and use whips, slave goads.
 slaves can't
FW use bows in hunting, and yes, even hunt male slaves...
 slaves can't


Except of course there are also quotes about Free Women:
- Not allowed to talk to people who are not of her family
    Not true at all. It's stated that about a certain status level of FW, try ubar's daughter.
- Not allowed to own any personal possessions
    Dead wrong, See Fighting slave of Gor for starters, and all the rest of the books, where ARE you reading that insanity?
- Being sold into slavery by their own family (father usually)
   Dept slavery, yes, that happens. Cause her father ran up a gambling bill and couldn't pay. Sold off his slaves, then possessions then family.
- Not allowed to leave their house
   We went through that issue before, and I listed out countless examples of FW in marketplaces, at slave auctions, watching arena fighting, races..etc.etc. Assassin of Gor for prime example of AR, Marauders of Gor, for women all over and having merchants visit them in their homes to show wares, etc.etc., Fighting slave of gor for women riding tharlarions in the marketplace with slaves by their sides...traveling from Vonda to Ar and back blah blah
   
- Not allowed to leave the High Cylinders until she gets sold out into companionship
  Again certain status level of daughter- Ubar, Admins

[Ina Anton]

and that is  why I avoid any generalisation about gorean books cause they so full of contradiction that on every statement you can find contra statement ... especially if you rip something out of it's context what is often seen especially on swapping all around Sl gorean NCs

[Carter Ebbage]

The differences are as wide and confusing as there are racial and geographical groups in GOR.. you have to be specific.

are we talking Torvie, Schendi, Taharian. Parravaci -  Free women.. because they all have different roles and rights dependant on the culture and even caste being talked about.

Norman did not make this easy or logical.. then again, I dont suspect he ever thought people would take his works seriously to this degree.

[Anarch]

- Not allowed to own any personal possessions
    Dead wrong

I'm just stating the examples were there in the books, and not just about daughters of Ubars. High status, perhaps.
I already listed a lot of quotes about that a while back, but can't really be arsed to dig them up right now. It becomes tedious after a while to having to keep pasting the same quotes over and over.

[Daved Calderwood]

Question, did Free Women also have some run of the day to day finances of the house? I could see her male companion with other things to do leaving up to his companion where the money was being spent on, but don't know if there was anything in the books confirming this.

[Adoveea Rau]

Great question, but it's way way off the posted topic.
Did we close down those differences already? guess so.
But in answer to the finances:
Various situations that leap into my mind was Jason with his kept FW in Rogue of Gor, she tells him to buy her clothing, give her his coins and get a job. Mauraders of Gor we have Bluetooth's woman in charge of the hall which means slaves etc. so she had to be in charge of the finances.
I'd guess it's probably one of those explained details that probably didn't make it into the books. Something taken for granted perhaps

Just like I can't find HOW slaves were tied onto tarn saddle rings, and yes I have that quote from the books,one fellow had four at a time.
Tarnsman loaded up four slaves on a capture raid, now HOW to put that onto a tarn saddle object boggles the mind, stacked like a wood pile? in a row behind him?

[Husam Darkfire]

Just like I can't find HOW slaves were tied onto tarn saddle rings, and yes I have that quote from the books,one fellow had four at a time.
Tarnsman loaded up four slaves on a capture raid, now HOW to put that onto a tarn saddle object boggles the mind, stacked like a wood pile? in a row behind him?

Maybe tie them together and drag them behind the tarn?

[Shyla Timeless]

Rolls up her sleeves:
Free woman makes all her own decisions and what she does or accomplishes
   Slaves don't
Free women own business, handle money, interact with whoever they please
   slaves don't
Free women can look however they want in clothing, weight, blah blah
   slaves don't
Free women can talk or not talk to anyone, and walk away from anything they don't enjoy, and speak their minds freely
   slaves can't
Free women can determine where they will live, own property, have multiple houses in many places
   slaves don't
Free women of age, determine who they want to companion and are protected by laws of a city
  slaves can't and have nothing protecting them from the whims of the Free
Free women can own slaves
  slaves are owned by the Free
Oh yeah, and what is soooo important in many peoples minds:  FW determine who they want to have sex with, and can even buy a male red silk slave for their personal use
  slaves don't have any of those options

and that's just the start of what being a free woman means.

Still going to tell me there's no major differences?
Arugements against this will get bombarded with book quotes

Imagine the mindset of a kajira who was ALL of those things you list under the “Free Woman can/do/will list who now has to relinquish the wonders of womanhood in that sense to take on and experience the new world of what a slave can do.


Slaves still have the mind and abilities to make decisions and choices only now her decisions and choices are filled with the desire to please a man.

Slaves manage households and tend to the needs of her Master.

Slaves can take pride in making sure their bodies are in top form, fit and appealing and show it off.

Slaves are absolved from having to engage in mindless conversations and can save quality dialog for her Master and given the right opportunity, they CAN speak their minds freely.

Slaves don’t have to be concerned with where they live or why because that decision is covered and taken care of by her Master or Mistress.  One less thing to worry about with so many other things to consider and tend to …

Slaves are not free to choose who their Master will be but they can choose to serve with fire and more often than not, in doing so, they are protected and cared for by the Free person in charge.  And most slaves are not wandering about getting into situations that would put them in danger of being challenged by the “whims of the Free”.

Slaves are owned.  That is for sure.  But in the state of such, they are more free than even the freest person …

Slaves do not choose who they have sex with but they are free to do so and actually enjoy it and show it every single time.
A Free Woman cannot.

[Rayzor McAuley]

I was going to toss my 2 coppers into this folly, but I see that Dove has things well in hand.  I think I'll just prop my feet up on a barrel of mead and watch.