Dear Dove : Torvaldsland

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May 2012

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May 28 - Memorial Day

[Babybear Serenity]

Preface:

With Adoveea Rau's permission I am beginning this column. It is pretty self-explanatory. There are times in my day where I am faced with a difficult situation and I find myself asking "WWDD" -'what would Dove do?", and so, I have decided to use the forums as a way to find out and to share.

Yes, of course I could just IM her privately, but then her witty and tremendously entertaining and often enlightening replies would be received by a party of one only, and she often says the most inspiring, insightful things, they need to be brodcasted.  Grin

Am I a fan? Yes. Do I always agree with Dove? No.

My wish for this topic is that anyone wanting to ask Dove a question, be given the courtesy to hear her reply to it before others reply to the question. AS TEMPTING as it might be, and as much as you will be itching to give your opinion, the premise is that the opening poster is seeking Dove's opinion formost, and of course, responses to her reply and the OP are welcome afterward.

I thank you all a head of time for this consideration, and I hope we can have some fun with it...
________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dear Dove,

One of the greatest things about the Gor novels, is the diversity that is depicted. Cross cultures, customs, traditions, regions and time. This mass of information can be a blessing but also at times, it can feel like a curse. Something I've been feeling lately is the loss of definition in characters, and cities and even in regions of Gor in SL. What I mean is, what would define an archetype character like "pleasure slave" or "Peasant" or "Warrior" either of those in city x, y or z, appears to be more and more lost in translation.

If I am a pleasure slave in Turia, I could be a vastly different character then a pleasure slave in Ko-ro-ba. Of course, some would be inclined to argue that any one of us playing a character could have a very long and detailed history and that this history shapes and molds our characters almost more then the label the character wears. But... at what point does our character history, along with the character history of dozens of other characters start to dilute the archetype to the point that the Gor we all know and love, none of those characters can be found any longer? At what point is it impossible to find the pure culture, custom, tradition and regions of Gor?

Alright, all that rhetoric aside, I have a specific question in mind, it was brewed there by a friend who IMd me with having noted how many Torvies are about lately in the more southern cities generically claiming that they are "the north"... I have also noticed a trend for men in the Warrior Caste within cities (presumably having sworn to the homestone, not simply mercs -like Kamchak who had proscribed himself to a city to "learn") to claim to be of Torvald. Not, descendent even.. but to carry on Torvald traditions, to carry Torvald weapons and to assume Caste and identity of Warriors.

 Following that, another slightly disturbing trend of slaves who proclaim that they are "bonds". Not slaves, but bonds as though it might not be a slave at all, wearing kirtles with horns attached (not picking on slaves who wear kirtles, because there are plenty of supposed "kirtles" in SL that are more like southern slave garments and more BtB then most other slave attire) claiming that they don't have to kneel because slaves don't kneel in the north (  ugh.. yes they do. No more or less then slaves in the "south") and my personal favorite, a slave refusing to call Seginus Master instead of Jarl because she's a "bond".. and other such things.
 
So, of course, given how we don't stay walled up in our cities, we tend to venture out and explore with our characters in SL, what advice could you give to someone wanting to play a Torvie but living below the forests? How do we preserve the central feeling without stiffling people's creativity? How do we encourage more people to venture to the North, stories and plots from southeners that might help with those mostly empty but glorious northern holdings? A way to increase everyone's RP but not dilute the wonderous characters that are possible by keeping to the archetypes at least in spirit.

And finally, how do we explain to "bond"s that they're slaves, not Torvies? 

[Sayrax wiefel]

I am Master, now shutup northern slave and kneel like I told you to

I am Mistress, now shutup lil twit of a cocksucker and kneel like I told you to

your not in the north put your frozen tiara away, before it melts, and kneel already.

*acts like a female kijara*      /me puts fingers in her ears * I can't hear you lalalala go away not bonds lalalalalal

*acts like male slave*  /me watches the bonds smoke her cig*  So same place tommrow behind the kallia stables?

*acts like a ooc mod *  Look okay, this isn't the north, their is no snow on the ground, I mean your travling alone becuase your "Master" gave you "travling" privlages, now kneel down and server properly or we will just cap you until your Master magically finds you, and takes you off our hands, and which point he will bitch at us, and we will ban him and you to not have to deal with your crap.

*acts like himself*  ooooo boobies

[Violetta Daviau]

"Jarl", "thrall", "bond" and "Odin" is just so way more kewl (cool) than "Master", "Kajirus" (not: Kajiru!!!), "Kajira", "Priest Kings" for so many. Just like Assassins (before they got put into tight ruling by some good serious master assassin players) and Kurrii (before they got put into tight ruling by some mature serious Kur players) and all the other black dressed kewlios (coolios).

When facing Torvies I always suffer from my prejudice against those being immature kids in RL until they can proof me wrong... if they can. I admit that. And especially their OOC discrimination against other roles makes them leave a very bad taste upfront (meaning e.g. the rules against panthers often found in their sims while they claim to be able to carry their serpent ships a 1000 pasangs over dry land to raid somewhere).

For me the mass of Torvies out there and - forced - their bonds and thralls, is a bad trend, mostly used to get away of normal Gor, to be more earthen viking, to not have to play a faith in bugs ("oh how uncool!"), thus they are often on the brink of being ungorean. I guess they need a tight set of rules, set by some serious players, much as panthers need it now, just as assassins already have, to become an asset for Gor RP... in my opinion at least. I hate myself for having upfront prejudices towards groups of people that have, as EVERY other too, some few good apples and a lot of bad apples.

And a Torvie in red caste robe is just rediculous in my perception. A slave today sold to the Tahari, tomorrow to Torvaldsland (suddenly forced to learn their language and use "Jarl") and the day after back to Ar, is something else. But SL Goreans are often unable to actually make their sims and surroundings and avatar looks any athmospheric. In Torvaldslands I expect to meet Torvaldslanders, and in some central Gorean village north of the Vosk, I don't, but the "I am bond, my Jarl will beat you, and now I leave because you say I must say Kajira" is so ever present anywhere....

[Aphris Myoo]

When facing Torvies I always suffer from my prejudice against those being immature kids in RL until they can proof me wrong... if they can. I admit that. And especially their OOC discrimination against other roles makes them leave a very bad taste upfront

Torvies can do that, in RL we Dutch do the same against Germans and Belgian.
But in SL Gor many non Torvies accept this behavior of Torvies and in fact join it. When I hear a warrior of Ko-Ro-Ba or Lydius say "I am the from the South" I think "f* it", you are victim of Torvie propaganda and the Torvie-centric world view. You also live in the North!

[Sayrax wiefel]

<---taharian

should see the laughs I get, when I tell them that torvies live in Ar, becuase thats northern of me

[Violetta Daviau]

When facing Torvies I always suffer from my prejudice against those being immature kids in RL until they can proof me wrong... if they can. I admit that. And especially their OOC discrimination against other roles makes them leave a very bad taste upfront

Torvies can do that, in RL we Dutch do the same against Germans and Belgian.
But in SL Gor many non Torvies accept this behavior of Torvies and in fact join it. When I hear a warrior of Ko-Ro-Ba or Lydius say "I am the from the South" I think "f* it", you are victim of Torvie propaganda and the Torvie-centric world view. You also live in the North!

I refer to the Area between Laura, Ko-Ro-Ba, Ar, Torcadino as "Central Gor" personally (if considering this map as true: http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f317/GorMMORPG/mainmap.gif) and from Bazi/Schendi southwards I would speak about "Southern Gor". But that is personal preference I guess.

Aside: For Bavarians the frontier to "Northern Germany" is mostly the Donau river, for some even a certain east-west going street in Munich already. And you should hear a Frankfurt inhabitant bitch, whine and call invalid if you tell him that Frankfurt is North Germany (while looking from Munich it is indeed northwards)...

[Adoveea Rau]

So, of course, given how we don't stay walled up in our cities, we tend to venture out and explore with our characters in SL, what advice could you give to someone wanting to play a Torvie but living below the forests? How do we preserve the central feeling without stiffling people's creativity? How do we encourage more people to venture to the North, stories and plots from southeners that might help with those mostly empty but glorious northern holdings? A way to increase everyone's RP but not dilute the wonderous characters that are possible by keeping to the archetypes at least in spirit.

The central aspect of any character can evolve through encounters with another culture. We do it all the time in our real lives, changing how we dress and react with people.
When you visit another country, you try new food, wear clothing to the climate, and pick up different expressions, behavior and mannerisms from those around you.
You take bits of either north/south area of gorean culture and weave it into your character but you always, and this is important, adapt to those around you.in the land you're in.

This is how roleplayers become deeper richer more interesting charactors and not one flat boring stereotype, predictable in every single action.

How do we encourage more people to venture to the North, stories and plots from southeners that might help with those mostly empty but glorious northern holdings? A way to increase everyone's RP but not dilute the wonderous characters that are possible by keeping to the archetypes at least in spirit.

My suggestion: The great northern  village rivalry
One chieftain decides to show he is richer and more prosperous, generous  over another chieftan- now we have southern merchants going north with goods, rival southern merchants too trying to get higher goods to one or the other village, we have southern slavers with chains of trained slaves to get really good prices for them. We have southern musicians and players of the south coming to get paid to out perform each other for the village that hired them-anyone wanna see a play that mocks the other village in parody? of course the other village attends.. Hunting animals (people in avatar gorean animals) and fighting slaves are brought by southern folks, for  battles in a  northern arena, sponsored of course by one village against the other. Villagers too get into this, pulling their connections and knowledge to southern folks, getting them up to the north, bringing people, goods etc.  to bolster the claim of their village is much better-
nefarious  plots and intrigue anyone?

how do we explain to "bond"s that they're slaves, not Torvies?

Slaves are slaves. Remember that slaves come from all over the lands of gor, not just one area.
Anyone can be a bondmaid, a pot and kettle slave, a passion slave, a dancer, whatever. It all means the same thing: a slave.
Where a slave lives, how she is trained and what her duties are will make her whatever the culture is for that area-. slaves are just called bondmaids when they are north.


“Go to the bond-maid circle,” said Ivar Forkbeard, indicating the circle he had drawn in the dirt.
The women cried out in misery. To enter the circle, of one is a female, is, by the laws of Torvaldsland, to declare oneself a bond-maid. A woman, of course, need not enter the circle of her own free will. She may, for example, be thrown within it, naked and bound. Howsoever she enters the circle, voluntarily or by force, free or secured, he emerges from it, by the laws of Torvaldsland, as a bond-maid.
Marauders of Gor Ch.9, page 87

I always laugh when slaves are proud about being bondmaids.

Mauraders of Gor Chapter 10 page 144-145
  The northern slave:
      "Look!" cried Pudding. "A silk girl!" The expression "silk girl" is used, often, among bond-maids of the north, to refer to their counterparts in the south. The expression reflects their belief that such girls are spoiled, excessively pampered, indulged and coddled, sleek pets, who have little to do but adorn themselves with cosmetics and await their masters, cuddled cutely, on plush, scarlet coverlets, fringed with gold. There is some envy in this charge, I think. More literally, the expression tends to be based on the fact that the brief slave tunic of the south, the single garment permitted the female slave, is often silk. Southern girls, incidentally, in my opinion, though scarcely as worked as their northern sisters in bondage, a function of the economic distinction between the farm and the city, are often worked, and worked hard, particularly if they have not pleased their masters.

" There are others who claim, as would be expected, that the handling of a slave girl, in order to get the most out of her, is an inborn gift. Incidentally, for what it is worth, though the southern girl is, I expect, worked less hard then the northern girl, who is commonly kept isolated on the farm, she is more often than her northern sister put to the switch or whip; I think she lives under a harsher discipline; southern masters are harder with their girls, expecting more from them and seeing that they get it; northern girls, for example, are seldom trained in the detailed, intricate sensuous arts of the female slave; the southern girl, to her misery, must often learn these to perfection; moreover, upon command, she must perform, joyfully and skillfully."


Mauraders of Gor Chapter 10 page 144-145
The southern slave:
   "High-farm girls!" she whispered, as she passed the bond-maids of Ivar Forkbeard. In the south the southern slave girl commonly regards her northern counterparts as bumpkins, dolts from the high farms on the slopes of the mountains of Torvaldsland; she thinks of them as doing little but swilling tarsk and dunging fields; she regards them as, essentially, nothing more than  a form of bosk cow, used to work, to give simple pleasure to rude men, and to breed thralls.

As a viewpoint of a roleplaying gorean free woman in how these slaves were trained North and South:
 An example: Poof!! I suddenly was given two slaves, one was collared and lived in torvaldsland-the north, the other comes from a slaver house in Ar-the south..

Guess who gets this series of chores in the tarn house?
Prize of Gor by John Norman page 298
Portus Canio, Tarnmaster of the Tower of Corridon teaching his new slave ellen her duties in a tarncot.
"Your duties, little vulvo," he said "do not, and will not, involve you in great danger, or at least not from tarns. That is not my intention. I would not risk a woman or even a slave with such beasts. Still in empty cages, or sparsely occupied cages, while a man stands watch, with a goad, you will have a ample opportunity during long hours to prove your value as a work slave, removing masses of soiled straw, shoveling excrement, scraping and scrubbing floors, supplying and spreading bundles of fresh, dry straw, carrying water for the reserviors, replenishing salt stones, climbing the wall railings to hang meat on the feeding hooks and such. "
 Ellen looked up at him, fearfully.
. "Of course " said he "you will have other duties, as well, cooking,cleaning, mending, sewing, laundering and such

And guess what slave is sent to the guest tarnsman/commanders/ubars  to serve, perform dancing and pleasure them later?
Assassin of Gor Chapter 15 page 204-205
" Elizabeth was, however, to my satisfaction, taught a large number of things which, to my mind, were more
appropriate to the training of slave girls, including a large number of dances, dozens of songs, and an unbelievable variety of kisses and caresses. The sheer mechanics of her repertoire, theoretically outfitting her to give exquisite pleasure to anyone from an Ubar to a peasant, are much too complex and lengthy to recount here."

[Conall DeCuir]

When a Torvie goes south, he has to adapt. It's not only needed to do that because of eventually religious hostility but also because of the climate.

When you spit in front of the feet of a southern warrior as a northern FW in a southern city and mock the priest kings (such happend to my alt) but tell him after he slapped you left and right into your stupid face that you are protected by your son who is a high ranked warrior of that city ... you are doing it wrong and he also.

You enter the south you will adapt with your clothes and probably with your behave also. The Initates would watch you .. they are mighty and might be able to get you, torture you and kill you. No one would want that. Sadly such is never RPed in SL-Gor .. its all safe and nice.

Men won't run around in fur cloakes and horned helmets, its much to warm. Women wouldnt run around unveiled, they would be welcome prey. Slaves, or self proclaimed bond maids,  wouldn't run around with their huge neko boots and call ever Free Man "Jaaaaaaaarl", at least not after the first slap in the face.

That the Men of Torvaldsland wouldnt wear red is not true. A man who lived for years and years and years in the south would eventually earn a position in the Red Caste, he could level up and become even an Officer, a high ranking one. But i agree, if that is just done without having to work for its not good. People changed and integrated themselfes, tried at least not to attract to much attention, especially when far away from home .. entering a different culture.

What could be done with bond maids refusing to act like slaves? Well what do we do at Gor with unruly and displeasing slaves ? The answer is given by the question.

And all the same applies for southern people which want to travel northwards. They would adapt to the climate and the different culture or die or be enslaved.

[Delaynie Barbosa]

How about bonds walking away from kajirae who throw insults back? I like a little slave squabble, and sometimes I start it!  But more often then not, you tell a bond no and she wants to go home to her Jarl. Really girl, if you're gonna call me a lazy spoiled silkie, you better wait around for me to tell you the reason your Jarl doesn't make you kneel is because you're too fat to get up again. It's BTB for bonds to think kajiae lazy, and for kajirae to think of bonds as nothing more then farmhands. 

But I guess what bothers me about bonds is the insistence of using Jarl. Dela was once from the north, and upon first correction when she was enslaved in a town in the Vosk Delta, never used Jarl to address a free man again, unless she knew for certain the man she as serving was a Torvie and wanted to please him with he knowledge of his culture. Slaves are what the free want them to be, if you're told to call a man Master... just do it. You tongue won't fall off or anything. 

But about Torvies. Not all northerners are Torvies. Torvaldsland starts at the Torvaldsmark, high in the northern latitudes of Gor. The Viking like culture lives up there... and not below. The rough attitude Torvalds are famous for is attributed to their rough environment, and not because of lack of reason or manners. They are harsh and strict, but hey, so are southern men.  Gorean men are uncomprimising, that doesn't mean lacks reason. Anyone claiming Torvie should know this, because your people are known for their cultural pride.

Here's a quote I think all bonds should know. It's about the threat of a big whipping for lack of a dash more salt.  It doesn't take much to upset the free of Tovaldsland, apparently.

"Earlier, before he had begun his tour of inspection, Pudding had come to him, and knelt before him, holding a plate of Sa-Tarna loaves. The daughter of Gurt, the Administrator of Kassau, was being taught to bake. She watched fearfully as the Forkbeard bit into one. "It needs more salt," he had said to her. She shuddered. "Do you think you are a bond-maid of the south?" he asked. "No, my Jarl," she had said. "Do you think it is enough for you to be pleasant in the furs?" he asked. "Oh, no, my Jarl!" she cried. "Bond-maids of the north must know how to do useful things," he told her. "Yes, my Jarl !" she cried. "Take these," said he, "to the stink pen and, with them, swill the tarsks!" "Yes, myJarl," she wept, leaping to her feet, and fleeing away. "Bond-maid!" called he. She stopped, and turned. "Do you wish to go to the whipping post ?" he asked. This is a stout post, outside the hall, of peeled wood, with an iron ring near the top, to which the wrists of a bond-maid, crossed, are lashed over her head. Near the bosk shed there is a similar post, with a higher ring, used for thralls. "No, my Jarl!" cried Pudding. "See then," said he, "that your baking improves!" "Yes, myJarl," she said, and fled away.  "It is not bad bread," said Ivar Forkbeard to me, when she  had disappeared from sight. He broke me a piece. We finished it. It was really quite good, but, as the Forkbeard had said, it could have used a dash  more salt. " Marauders

[Conall DeCuir]

Well, i do not care about slave squabbles  but i am sure it is annoying when this banters or fights are taken as if the little bond maid would have to be safed by her daddy jarl and vice versa for silkies.

I have the impression, that there is no fear of slaves because of any gorean master. The one who pretends to be a gorean slave in a roleplay setting (be it a bond or a kajira) has no fear, shows no fear .. she does just not roleplay a gorean slave and with that its useless to give it any try. Just let them be and tend to the ones which want to roleplay. It is the same with free of course. Not everyone who tells you he/she is of Torvaldsland, knows what it means to roleplay a Torvaldslander. But it sounds cool .. hey, i are a Viking.

BTW, does anyone know how silly roleplay in torvaldsland becomes when you, dressed in fur cloaks, with a shirt and a tunic and with real warm boots .. when you are suddenly surrounded by people of the south in sandals, tunics only or silks when the ground is frozen and it snows ?

 

[Violetta Daviau]

Well, i do not care about slave squabbles  but i am sure it is annoying when this banters or fights are taken as if the little bond maid would have to be safed by her daddy jarl and vice versa for silkies.

I have the impression, that there is no fear of slaves because of any gorean master. The one who pretends to be a gorean slave in a roleplay setting (be it a bond or a kajira) has no fear, shows no fear .. she does just not roleplay a gorean slave and with that its useless to give it any try. Just let them be and tend to the ones which want to roleplay. It is the same with free of course. Not everyone who tells you he/she is of Torvaldsland, knows what it means to roleplay a Torvaldslander. But it sounds cool .. hey, i are a Viking.

That is the influence of the OOC slaves and masters, RL BDSM and D/s players. They play their Gor the earth way, and on earth either is consensual between partners in privacy usually. Then killing is considered bad roleplay (yes, I know: I wrote I do not want to be killed either, but that meant if I am behaving ungorean or do not respect clear kill threats, the only reasons I kill people too). The kajira RP limits are OOC and of course thus also IC, and if violated one goes into IM and to mods and summons the master.
If people would actually roleplay gorean persons instead of themselfes within a barbie doll game with nice sim setups, and understand that Gorean slavery is not nearly any close to earthen, consensual, intra-home D/s BDSM, we would live in a really dangerous place where fear would be needed to play nearly.
I myself have to play fear often though also out of own intend. I get snickered about by other kajirae that listen and read my chat and wonder why I am scared about men that are so nice to me no matter what fail I committed.

BTW, does anyone know how silly roleplay in torvaldsland becomes when you, dressed in fur cloaks, with a shirt and a tunic and with real warm boots .. when you are suddenly surrounded by people of the south in sandals, tunics only or silks when the ground is frozen and it snows ?

 

And vice versa, if the torvies stand in their heavy furs in the Tahari or in Ar during summer times - did anyone ever play how rotten their sweatty carcasses stink?
The least SL Players, even those with money, play to dress according to the situation or according to their time to redress. Most buy "kewl" looking outfits and wear them until they find and can afford an even more "kewl" one. Realistic to the theme style was never something Gor was really known for sadly - and many other RP themes either. Gorean outfit is where Gor is written on... until we find a product out there called "Gorean Jeans", "Sunglasses of the Tahari" and "Tarl's dillinger colt" and what not. Gor written onto it so it must be Gorean, and if it looks "kewl" it must be bought and will be worn.

[Aphris Myoo]

Aside: For Bavarians the frontier to "Northern Germany" is mostly the Donau river, for some even a certain east-west going street in Munich already. And you should hear a Frankfurt inhabitant bitch, whine and call invalid if you tell him that Frankfurt is North Germany (while looking from Munich it is indeed northwards)...

Ahh, I got muted by a German last week, because I said his language looked like the dialect of Ost Friesland 

[Violetta Daviau]

Ugh, bad , BAD mistake...

But does that mean a kajira should tell a Bond that her wording sounds like a dialect of the tarsk pen? :p

[Aphris Myoo]

Ugh, bad , BAD mistake...

The funny is that it was not a mistake, he really wrote like that.

[Aphris Myoo]

But does that mean a kajira should tell a Bond that her wording sounds like a dialect of the tarsk pen? :p

All bonds speak like the Swedish cook "den här är så kåt, min jarl".