Questions of a Southerner in Torvaldsland

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June 2013

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Jun 21 - Summer Solstice

[Telkarr]

Hello, hello!

So, I've been away from SL Gor for probably 6-7 months, and returned a few days ago.  Obviously, being away for that long, means that most of the people I associated with have moved on to other stories, SIMs, etc.

So that leaves me with a bit of a clean slate, though I do have a developed character.  I've found myself, for the very first time, in Torvaldsland.

My question is two part:

1)  My character is from the south, specifically of Ar.  I was never actually part of the Ar SIM though, and simply wrote it to add that measure of depth to my background.  Realistically, I could change it, but instead, now being in Torvaldsland, it has become a plot driver based on cultural differences and sometimes, contention.

I have taken a liking to the SIM though, and those who RP there.  For this reason, I plan to stay, but I'm wondering how valid a southern warrior of Ar staying in the northern mountains among Torvaldsland culture would really be.  This of course, being a long term endeavor -- swearing a pledge to the chieftan or high jarl.

The cultural differences of homestones, being that currently, Tel carries his with him, and the Torvaldslanders do not understand this practice -- is he forced to always be an outsider?  Is it plausible or even possible that he would progress in a Jarlship? Would the inability to lay his homestone be too unsettling?  Or could, after I actually acquire a "home" inside the SIM, simply place my homestone there and view it as BTB?

I haven't read Marauders, so potentially the above are silly questions.

2)  I strive, and have strived to play Tel dynamically; both emotionally and in relation to my take on the codes.  I don't run around challenging people willynilly, but when people choose to waste my time, or dance around challenges with flowery, obscure language -- I do press for the simple solution of steel. 

eg.  Today, in the village, myself and a recent sellsword arrival were (ashamed face) picking on a free woman a little bit.  The typical frigid, stand-offish exchange carried on until I told her, rather warningly that:

"If I were in the village under different pretenses, your promises of me not 'having you' would be very, very false."

At this, the other warrior piped up:

"Not if my steel was in the village."

To Tel, this was a rather obvious challenge.  To tell him he would fail in his raid, or campaign due to this man's presence.  I gave him an opportunity to clarify what he meant, but he decided not to retract it.

A duel ensued.

He was beaten, I refuted the blood on my sword that we might, after the ordeal, not be known as sword brother (and so that I didn't have to kill him,) and went on my merry way.

Later, he came to the long house, and he spoke of codes, namely that my interpretation of them was wrong, and that the duel wasn't, or should not have been necessary.

In this he quoted Maxim #4?

I've never read these maxim and aphorisms notecards.  I started playing Tel after reading the first 4-5 novels, and didn't concern myself with notecards.

Am I in the wrong?

[Gorm]

Hi there and welcome back. Taking a brake can be very refreshing!

I shall try and answer your questions at my best. I am sure you will get a lot and many might not agree with me even.

My story is the oppusite of yours btw, i was a torvie in SL for 4 years and i have now moved south, so my char is ajusting to this life, taking it bit by bit, trying to make it realistic and plausable.

I think any gorean man would indeed ajust. For me it would be silly to run around with a full beard, furs and my hammer in Port Cos. As a bit of a chriminal as i think Gorm is, he would be noticed way to fast as well. So first my advice would be to arrive as the arian man you are, with your habits and knowledge as it is. Use you need to know more as good roleplay, ask people around you, why this and why that - you might be cold as Torvaldsland isnt the warmest of places, so furs will be good to wear, a woolen cloak maybe, warmer boots etc. And maybe you dont want to be the only man shaved eighter - as a roleplay developing

Now to your questions:

1)  
I have taken a liking to the SIM though, and those who RP there.  For this reason, I plan to stay, but I'm wondering how valid a southern warrior of Ar staying in the northern mountains among Torvaldsland culture would really be.  This of course, being a long term endeavor -- swearing a pledge to the chieftan or high jarl.
***  How about your char having done something not very honourable, crimainal or just wants to run away due to a broken heart, not being able to companion the daughter of the Ubar as whished? – Playing the imperfection is sometimes most interesting. And hiding in Torvaldsland is very valid in my op, for those reasons.

2)
The cultural differences of homestones, being that currently, Tel carries his with him, and the Torvaldslanders do not understand this practice -- is he forced to always be an outsider?  Is it plausible or even possible that he would progress in a Jarlship? Would the inability to lay his homestone be too unsettling?  Or could, after I actually acquire a "home" inside the SIM, simply place my homestone there and view it as BTB?
***Torvaldslanders doesn’t care about Home Stones and they swear to their Jarl pledging their axe to him. I cant see you are not able to place a Home Stone of your own, in a private house though. 

3)
I haven't read Marauders, so potentially the above are silly questions.
***And that you really should, it will give you a whole new deept to your story and its very, very easy to read – doesn’t take long eighter.

4)
 I strive, and have strived to play Tel dynamically; both emotionally and in relation to my take on the codes.  I don't run around challenging people willynilly, but when people choose to waste my time, or dance around challenges with flowery, obscure language -- I do press for the simple solution of steel.  
.
.
.
.
Am I in the wrong?
***In the North there are no real ’codes’, torvies aren’t noble men and for you as a southerner, I am sure you know better how to act like a honourable warrior then I. I just want to point out, that there are no maxims or aphorisms in Gor BTB, its all old onlineisms - and yes! Stay far away from the notecard hell as possible. Marauders has a great chapeter on torvie cduels and once you have adapted to the culture, they are great guidelines..

I wish you the best of luck – Torvaldsland is a great environment with lots of potentials. I like it that men are not supposed to be so bloody perfect, noble and honourable, as they are in the south and most women actually prefer that too, so I think your in for a good time!

A last advice to you would be that, next time someone jumps at you to discuss wether your rp is valid or not, to preach their assumtions, then just give them this answer 'please stay IC and lets deal with it there' - period!

[Drevan Darkbyrd]

In regards to the First part of the question, I could not say haven't read Marauders myself....though I seem to recall my roommate who has read say they too had home stones for their own homes they just didn't swear to City ones like in the south. I could, be wrong there don't quote me.

As for the second part, you were PERFECTLY in the right to insist on a duel by sword you were 1) BEING Challenged and for no reason than he wanted to make his sword bigger than yours((lol something I do myself hehe)) and 2.) As the Challenged you have the right to choose form of weapon

To this Maxim #4 stuff I will say this Of the theoretical 100 Aphorisms of the Warriors Caste Only 26 were covered in the books and the only part of your post that contradicted ANY of them was the refuting of his blood. You don't refute to blood so DONT have to kill them, they being your sword brother means you are LESS likely to kill them, you refute the blood usually because you see them as dishonorable. What is CLEARLY defined in the codes of the Warrior's Caste is that there is only ONE way to accept any challenge, PROMPTLY, you followed your codes, Tel, he just had sore grapes after you whipped his backside.


Edit: For a Book reference to support this here is the third paragraph of Chapter 6, Nar the Spider, from Tarnsmen of Gor "My heart began to beat wildly, and I considered the facility with which I might yet wing my way from Ar.  Once a warrior without a helmet flew near, drunk, and challenged me for the perch, a wild tarnsman of low rank, spoiling for a fight.  If I had yielded the perch, it would have aroused suspicion immediately, for on Gor the only honorable reply to a challenge is to accept it promptly."

[Bhoamar Landfall]

An interesting question as to how would (blank) react, interact in a (blank) sim.

Let Me know how it is going as I am also in a similiar situation.

[Sayrax wiefel]

I kinda of look at it this way

Torvies prefer verr

City folk prefer kallia

taharis prefer  slaves



How you take this , is up to you .

[Carter Ebbage]

Why add a complexity to your time in SL GOR when it isn't necessary or has any validity.

I would argue, what is a southerner doing in the Torvisland.. its not in his culture, religion, codes and undermines the deeply held convictions a Southern Gorean had for his  homestone.. in fact by remaining in Torvie land and swearing a new oath (which btw begs the question what does you oath actually mean when you deny your original) and you are actually denying your basis premis as a citizen of Ar... ipso facto, you are an outlaw.


Goreans did not emigrate through globilisation and economic pressures and create sub cultures on the fringes of new lands as the Europeans have and now the African/Asian population... there is no basis for this and IMO unless you want to be one of those UNIQUE characters of Gorean novels..  I personally believe you are over thinking this and trying to come up  with a solution to scenario which did not exist and has no merit....

i started in Sl GOR as a Taharian and moved to the Voltai.. it didn't work, it had no conviction, it confused people and I felt fake... so I reinvented myself rather than continue with a flakey character...that what you should do.

However, all that said, its your game and your time and you can do what you want...be a Taharian in Torvieland if you want, or a Pani on the Vosk Delta.. or a Teletubbie in the Schendi.. they all have equal merit when you transplant your character to  an environment he wouldn't be in.

added)..on reflection I realise the tone of my response may seem harsh and critical .. please accept it is not my intention to specifically criticise you personally

[Neria Llewellyn]

Tarl went north, why shouldn't you? my background is i was born torvie, went south was adopted by southern parents, went back north when i was claimed by torvies and now i'm back in the south as a slave. it's your game do what you want, but yea I would read the book it's my fav!!

[Telkarr]

An interesting question as to how would (blank) react, interact in a (blank) sim.

Let Me know how it is going as I am also in a similiar situation.

Sounds like sarcasm?

Why add a complexity to your time in SL GOR when it isn't necessary or has any validity.

I would argue, what is a southerner doing in the Torvisland.. its not in his culture, religion, codes and undermines the deeply held convictions a Southern Gorean had for his  homestone.. in fact by remaining in Torvie land and swearing a new oath (which btw begs the question what does you oath actually mean when you deny your original) and you are actually denying your basis premis as a citizen of Ar... ipso facto, you are an outlaw.


Goreans did not emigrate through globilisation and economic pressures and create sub cultures on the fringes of new lands as the Europeans have and now the African/Asian population... there is no basis for this and IMO unless you want to be one of those UNIQUE characters of Gorean novels..  I personally believe you are over thinking this and trying to come up  with a solution to scenario which did not exist and has no merit....

i started in Sl GOR as a Taharian and moved to the Voltai.. it didn't work, it had no conviction, it confused people and I felt fake... so I reinvented myself rather than continue with a flakey character...that what you should do.

However, all that said, its your game and your time and you can do what you want...be a Taharian in Torvieland if you want, or a Pani on the Vosk Delta.. or a Teletubbie in the Schendi.. they all have equal merit when you transplant your character to  an environment he wouldn't be in.

added)..on reflection I realise the tone of my response may seem harsh and critical .. please accept it is not my intention to specifically criticise you personally

Trying to create a new subculture wasn't my intent.  Though I don't agree with your generalization of character transplanting.  While some cultures might be difficult/impossible to penetrate (Tuchuk coming immediately to mind,) unless in slavery; people from the larger, more homogenized cities like Ar can harbor those of other cities.

I roleplay my cultural segregation with a purpose.  It drives distrust and makes for another level of social storytelling.

I can just as easily write that I am an outlaw if that would add validity to my being in Torvaldsland.  That's the reason I posed the question -- to get ideas that would make my situation 'feel' more authentic.  It would be a quick and easy amendment to a story that has gone largely untold ICly.

Perhaps I damaged an insolent Thentis' slave and couldn't pay for her.  Maybe a reprimand for allowing the escape of a city captive led to political conflict.  Or 'warmed' a frigid free woman only to discover she was the companion of a high ranking official.

There's plenty of scenarios that could make me a wanted man, and would've forced me to leave the south.  Whether that means I renounce my oaths to Ar and become even more of an outlaw is a point for future consideration. 

Even if that doesn't happen, and I remain, for the entirety of my stay in Torvaldsland as an outsider -- I'm sure being met with a dose of hospitality and the common ground akin to those of the warrior caste makes it more than valid.

Thanks for the input thus far, its made me think.  And to Carter Ebbage; you can use whatever tone you like -- I have a thick skin.

[Shadow Teromaximus]

There are LOT of men with Torvie origin IC-wise who are serving in Scarlet caste in different southern cities ; I have met IC many of them; why not vise versa?

[Carter Ebbage]

There are LOT of men with Torvie origin IC-wise who are serving in Scarlet caste in different southern cities ; I have met IC many of them; why not vise versa?

There are more Torvies in some Southern Cities than actual Red Caste of that city !!!!

I guess its just one of those things in SL GOR... the need for selfish individuality compromises and undermines the sense of a group identity and theme of a sim with these oddballs turning up.

[Frang01]

There are LOT of men with Torvie origin IC-wise who are serving in Scarlet caste in different southern cities ; I have met IC many of them; why not vise versa?

There are more Torvies in some Southern Cities than actual Red Caste of that city !!!!

I guess its just one of those things in SL GOR... the need for selfish individuality compromises and undermines the sense of a group identity and theme of a sim with these oddballs turning up.

Grabs his axe, board shorts, and sunglasses and heads south to the desert to follow the migration.

[Sayrax wiefel]

Tahari to me is more intresting then either torvie or city folk...

Torvie has been over done, that I walk into a city like Treve or Ar and get called Jarl..... shows a problem

City i think is fun for caste, but I have more fun coming in with pure blue turban and such, and ask folks why they think am a scribe.

[Mathilde Niosaki]

Lillith is also from the South, Ar like you, and spent some time in Torvaldsland. Is it valid? Well typically someone with a Home Stone probably would not leave it because one of the things about Goreans is that the person is fiercely proud of the Home Stone one is pledged to... however in Gor SL with so many sims coming and going, to keep the plausibility of staying in one Home Stone is nearly impossible. Also choice of where you like to RP is more important than say staying in a Home Stone of your character. Some Goreans cities do not exist in SL Gor so that is detrimental to character plausibility as well.

Some people create different characters for new sims but I prefer to keep my main because I feel that with her history and my attachment to her, I want to continue as her storyline and see how she develops. Anyways back to the question... I would think that playing a Southerner who is trying to get used to the northern way of life is a great storyline. That is one I used and it certainly helped to move my story along at times. Although others suggest reading "Marauders of Gor" I would think that learning by doing.. meaning by observing the ways of Torvie life with other RPers would be more realistic. Just a personal observation but of course reading a Gorean novel is never a bad thing.

I am not that well versed in the warrior codes but I would think that if any Gorean male is challenged then one would rise to the occasion. I do not see anyone walking away from a challenge because that would seem more un-Gorean to me.

Torvaldsland is a very rich culture which I enjoyed learning about. I really enjoyed my time there drinking mead and hanging out at the longhall. Enjoy the Northern ways of life and see where the story takes you.

[Mathilde Niosaki]

I guess its just one of those things in SL GOR... the need for selfish individuality compromises and undermines the sense of a group identity and theme of a sim with these oddballs turning up.

I think of it more like being flexible to the limitations of SL Gor. If Gorean sims stood the test of time and remained for years and years.. I could see where this would be more valid. However with sims opening and closing within months.. inventing a new character is exhausting and expensive. I spent a lot of time coming up with a back story for my main and created her personality organically through RPs, I don't want to give up years of storylines so I can play in a sim that might close within months.

Also choice of where a RPer would like to roleplay should be more important than such minor detail of what Home Stone one is pledged to. After all, we are in it for enjoyment of our time online. I don't think it's one of those details that would seriously disrupt someone's immersion in Gor but I could be wrong.

[Carter Ebbage]

I guess its just one of those things in SL GOR... the need for selfish individuality compromises and undermines the sense of a group identity and theme of a sim with these oddballs turning up.

I think of it more like being flexible to the limitations of SL Gor. If Gorean sims stood the test of time and remained for years and years.. I could see where this would be more valid. However with sims opening and closing within months.. inventing a new character is exhausting and expensive. I spent a lot of time coming up with a back story for my main and created her personality organically through RPs, I don't want to give up years of storylines so I can play in a sim that might close within months.

counted more than five  "I" s to justify why you think it is more important that you don't change your character to fit in with the sim you have joined....

As they say.. "there is no I in team, but there is a me"