Roleplay learning...FW and Papers

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June 2013

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Jun 21 - Summer Solstice

[Adoveea Rau]

Sometimes situations are given to me as a moderator/adviser in gorean roleplay, so I'm sharing this one for readers to enjoy and input on:

Working just from the facts you're given here...

Here's the scene:
Free woman at her shop and a warrior comes up demanding she show him her papers.(the papers are papers of manumission-showing she is a freed slave)
Free woman declares she has no papers, she's a free woman, has always been one and owns the shop.

Now the fun part-give some input for other readers:

Do all free woman have to have papers?
Is anyone allowed to demand papers of a free women?
What is the penalty on the man if a woman is not a former slave at all, but is a free woman?
What is the penalty or what can be done to a woman if she is a former slave?
And just for your roleplay imagination fun and serious replies:

What can the free woman do at this point if he is persistent?

[Xaz Elephas]

Thank you Dove for educating me today. I sort of knew the guy was wrong but I knew you know for sure and could back it up.   

[Drevan Darkbyrd]

No not all Free Women need papers
While this would depend on the laws of the City but the best answer would be if there a man including a Warrior of that city, that suspects one of the women of his city is actually a slave without papers, then they would bring the case, the case not the woman, before the magistrate would then investigate the situation and determine if the man is telling the truth but not just anyone can demand papers of a woman.
If I can recall the books correctly I think the punishment is either death or enslavement for the man for falsely accusing the woman.
Former slave with papers, She is just a Free woman now. Former slave no papers, in the eyes of the law, she is a slave subject to re collaring and if the magistrate or Admin/Ubar deems it so impalement for dressing as a free.

For the bonus question.....not sure not enough info

[kiya Pawpad]

To be honest, this sounds like harassment. Free Women were respected and honored per the books, even if not in SL Gor. They constituted 95% of the entire female population (that is, almost all of it). Every indication is that they went about their business and their daily lives like normal people, which they were. Threats of collaring were only brought on by their own behavior. Why every idiot male in SL Gor has to hound and barrage FW with threats, jokes and constant reminders of the looming threat of a collar, is beyond me. And is so incredibly not by the books it's ridiculous, yet perpetrated mostly by the men who beat their chests with the "btb thumper" the loudest (and are also usually the same ones who restrict their slaves, make them beg permission to greet, and drink 50 cups of black wine a day<snickers>).

Go figure.


 

[thyri Carver]

NO all FW do not need papers.

In this lovely SL world that we live in, I'd be surprised if every single FW didnt have a brand on their thigh simply because of how fast people are to brand FW.  And I'd be surprised if every single FW didnt have manumission papers.

HOWEVER.  If you had manumission papers, would you be carrying them on you at all times?  I'd think after a year or so of keeping those papers on you that the parchment would eventually fall apart.  I have yet to read the book of "Laminators of Gor".  

Thyri has her papers of manumission under lock and key in her home.  I dont keep them on her in the RP sense.  

A magistrate MAY say to a FW to display her thigh to prove that she's in fact free, and if she doesnt have papers to back up her freedom should she have a brand, then there's hell to pay.  However, FW dont just roam around having their manumission papers on them nor do they have every single business contract on their person.  Nor do they have any companionship contracts on their person at all times.  The sheer load of paperwork would be enormous.

Paperwork on Gor was time consuming and an art of a practice.  Not having manumission documents scrawled on a cocktail napkin.  Documents of that sort are official and are generally kept in official places or in a safe place.

Should a magistrate say to a FW "THIGH!"  and she's got a brand.  She can tell the magistrate that her papers are in her home under lock and key and if he'd like to accompany her to talk to her family or her companion as to why he thinks she is not free, and to verify her manumission documents, fine.  

But warriors spot checking FW of their own home stone?  I think not!!!

Now, the penalty on the man for insinuating that this FW is a slave?  I'd say a good slap in the face would do him good.  For a warrior, not a magistrate, to demand a FW display her thigh???  And she didnt laugh in his face and send him on his merry little way and he put his hands on a FW of his own home stone?  Be prepared for assault charges bucko.

[Shyla Timeless]

Free woman at her shop and a warrior comes up demanding she show him her papers.(the papers are papers of manumission-showing she is a freed slave)
Free woman declares she has no papers, she's a free woman, has always been one and owns the shop.

What was she doing prior to his arrival?  Or what had she been doing to prompt this visit?  Was it a random  spot check by some paranoid companion-to-be?  Maybe the man was drunk, an ass or possibly just teasing her for the sake of teasing her? 

Of course, it is hard to answer these questions not knowing more about the story building up to this moment.  In any case, I would think she would be within her legal rights to tell him to bug off.  There are creative ways to smooth over the situation IC.  She could easily delay, distract, deny and deflect his efforts with some finesse till he produced something concrete to support his (?) incredulous claim and demand for papers.  I think this situation could be a fun plot to pursue while the details are worked out.

[Dren Bernard]

Presuming all are genuine players first of all.

The woman is in her shop so we may presume she is in her home stone. She would therefore have some rights bestowed to her under local law.
He could be of her home stone and therefore know her, her male relatives or connections. He would then have to have very good reason to challenge her because he knows he has to back it up before a magistrate.

If he is from elsewhere, he probably would not know her protections and would be smart to be careful as again before a magistrate of the local and not your own home stone, he is on thin ice.

It is of course possible that he wants to see if he can make a slave out of her but just implying she is one; quite a lazy attempt at chain luck however with some seemingly more valid approach by focusing on paper work.

Of course not all free women need to carry manumission papers as you only get those to set you free after having been a slave. If they did it would presume they all were slaves once. "The papers" she needs to show him are the might of the local enforcers.

So if he is particularly obnoxious and wont let it rest, a quick nod to a slave or another customer (who knows you) to go get the law is the best way forward. Or to offer to take him to the magistrate's house as there is where I keep "my papers".

If he is patient you could also set him down and ask him questions like " now, how many slaves have you been able to obtain this way?" Does this work at your home stone?" etc etc.

One thing she should never do is prove she has no brand. It is not up to her to satisfy his demanding curiosity. A Magistrate would be the only one IF he/she thinks this is called for.

[RavingRob Radek]

Since there IS a merchant caste, with many sub-castes, I doubt a woman would have been able to open a shop, without the caste knowing all about her. That should be enough for a warrior not to need to investigate. Unless, we could get a bit of RP out of this: A competitor could be trying to make trouble for her  

[Carter Ebbage]

Since there IS a merchant caste, with many sub-castes, I doubt a woman would have been able to open a shop, without the caste knowing all about her. That should be enough for a warrior not to need to investigate. Unless, we could get a bit of RP out of this: A competitor could be trying to make trouble for her  

That to me is crunch...
the woman must be part of the caste to be able to trade or the caste themselves would come down on her.
the woman owns property.. and we can assume this is recorded with the Scribes/Administrator  and thereofre she also conforms to be being a citizen of the city or granted permission from the administration.

The warrior/guard.. he is a butt head.... enough said

[Adoveea Rau]

see, its fun to educate isn't it?

One of the reasons i post things like this is not to show bad roleplay, or have it judged etc.etc..
It's posted for the purpose and sharing of thoughts on what people do and how others can react in knowing their  gorean roleplay for their chosen roles.

Thank you all for giving examples about dealing with that type of situation in our gorean roleplay world.
You may have gotten some more people thinking in terms of creativity about that type of situation now.

[Mahilwen Mistwalker]

The woman Dove is speaking about was me.  I was asked to show papers, to show him I was a Free woman, or a former slave. Behind my screen I was really like WTF! Because I also know that Free women do not have papers with them.  My character of course, went mad about it IC. I went to travel came down of my shop to the boat, when this happend. Mahi bursted out of laughter about it, and went away. But he threathend her if I do not showed my papers the next time I came back, he would bound me into my house, till I showed those papers...

<3 Mahi

[Taliyah]

I believe it is only the Magistrates that can verify a woman's status. I might be wrong. but vigilantism is not exactly acceptable within most cities on Gor. There are laws and they are to be followed. Though, this would make for great RP if the warrior was given a public lashing for harassing a respected free woman of the Home Stone.

[consuelo albanese]

Women do not require papers... not even freed slaves.

I took from my tunic the key my father had given me, the key to Sana's collar. I reached to the lock behind her neck, inserted the key and turned it, springing open the mechanism. I jerked the collar away from her throat and threw it and the key from the tarn's back and watched them fly downward in a long, graceful parabola.
“You are free,” I said. “And we are going to Thentis.”  [John Norman, Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]]

And later we learn she apparantly didn't need any proof.

Kazrak's tarn had alighted on the roof of the cylinder, and a moment afterward my father's and perhaps fifty others. Behind Kazrak, sharing his saddle, in the leather of a tarnsman, rode the beautiful Sana of Thentis. The Assassins of Pa-Kur were throwing down their swords and removing their helmets. Even as I watched, my father's tarnsmen were roping them together.   [John Norman, Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]]

[Drevan Darkbyrd]

Women do not require papers... not even freed slaves.

I took from my tunic the key my father had given me, the key to Sana's collar. I reached to the lock behind her neck, inserted the key and turned it, springing open the mechanism. I jerked the collar away from her throat and threw it and the key from the tarn's back and watched them fly downward in a long, graceful parabola.
“You are free,” I said. “And we are going to Thentis.”  [John Norman, Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]]

And later we learn she apparantly didn't need any proof.

Kazrak's tarn had alighted on the roof of the cylinder, and a moment afterward my father's and perhaps fifty others. Behind Kazrak, sharing his saddle, in the leather of a tarnsman, rode the beautiful Sana of Thentis. The Assassins of Pa-Kur were throwing down their swords and removing their helmets. Even as I watched, my father's tarnsmen were roping them together.   [John Norman, Tarnsman of Gor [Gor Series Book 1]]

What she had Consuelo was Free men willing to assert she was Free, such as a Companion, or her Father. That is different, in later books we learn they did infact need papers to prove freedom if already branded when they had no such protections. Who is going to argue with a rich merchant in Thentis? Or a Warrior like Karak who after became admin of Ar? this is a far different situation