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Author Topic: Claiming free woman?  (Read 11378 times)
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EricT Sapphire
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« 26. December 2012, 02:55:23 »
I have not seen any quotes about this done in the north, so wondering if it was an onlinism or not.  Now I did find quotes to suggest both side were possible, but the problem with torvie RP is like gor there is no "player manual", but torvie is only talked about in one book unlike the rest of gor and most of that was to follow a story and not tarl learning everything there is not know about the people.

Quotes supporting Claiming is onlinism:

1. Tarl calls it companionship (though suggested he did so as he was comparing it to southern ways)

free women of Torvaldsland commonly carry a knife; at her belt too, hung her scissors, and a ring of many keys, indicating that her hall contained many chests or doors; her hair was worn high, wrapped about a comb, matching the broaches, of the horn of kailiauk ; the fact that her hair was worn dressed indicated that she stood in companionship; the number of her keys, together with the scissors, indicated that she was mistress of a great house. She had gray eyes; her hair was dark; her face was cold and harsh.
Marauders of Gor - Page 156


2. When tarl stood as a champion for a torvie boy in defense of the boy's sister, he boy offered him silver and tarl replied for him to keep it for his sisters companionship dowry.  Which suggest obviously, not claiming, but more along the middle age style of arranged marriages were bride prices where paid to/from suitors to the father of the girl.

"These I give to you, Champion," said the boy, trying to push into my hands the three tarn disks of silver.
"Save them." Said I, "for your sister's dowry in her companionship."
Marauders of Gor


3.  It is a legal matter to be companioned, if "claiming" or "companionship papers" are done to make this a binding legal fact is not said.

"The fixing of the Kur collar, it had been decided by Svein Blue Tooth, was equivalent to the fixing of the metal collar and, in itself, was sufficient to reduce the subject to slavery, which condition deprives the subject of legal status, and rights attached thereto, such as the right to stand in companionship."
Marauders of Gor


Quotes supporting it is possible to claim a woman

1.  If a man loses a duel, his companion/daughter would be given as a prize to the winner.

"These duels, particularly of the formal variety, are sometimes used disreputably for gain by unscrupulous swordsmen. A man, incredibly enough, may be challenged risks his life among the hazel wands; he may be slain; then, too, of course, the stake, the farm, the companion, the daughter, is surrendered by law to the challenger."
Marauders of Gor


2.  One thing about the North that is different then the south, is that the men do whatever they want with the women.  In the south to be enslaved in her homestone, a free woman would have to face a magistrate.  While in the north, a man only has to throw her in a circle he draws in the dirt and "legally" by torvie law she is now a slave.  So if a man can "claim" a woman as a slave just by throwing her in a circle, is it a leap for him to "claim" a woman as his companion/mate just by taking her home with him?

"'Go to the bond-maid circle,' said Ivar Forkbeard, indicating the circle he had drawn in the dirt. The women cried out in misery. To enter the circle, if one is a female, is, by the laws of Torvaldsland, to declare oneself a bond-maid. A woman, of course, need not enter the circle of her own free will. She may, for example be thrown within it naked and bound. Howsoever, she enters the circle, voluntarily or by force, free or secured, she emerges from it, by the laws of Torvaldsland, as a bond-maid."
Marauders of Gor, pg. 44-45

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EricT Sapphire
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« 26. December 2012, 02:59:07 »
...someone did tell me that there was a time when a man tried to claim a woman, but they had to get approval from the village Jarl, in the quote it was redbeard and he refused the man.  I have no quotes and can not find it, perhaps another can bring it foward, and add a needed link to the discussion.
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Adoveea Rau
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« 26. December 2012, 03:34:08 »
“Port Kar does not recognize the Free Companionship, but there are free women in the city, who are known simply as the women of their men.” Raiders of Gor, p. 295

That's the only gorean city that has that practice -Port Kar


Very much an Onlinism for the northern lands
« Last Edit: 26. December 2012, 03:36:25 by Adoveea Rau » Logged

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Meri Slade
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« 26. December 2012, 04:09:18 »
“Port Kar does not recognize the Free Companionship, but there are free women in the city, who are known simply as the women of their men.” Raiders of Gor, p. 295

That's the only gorean city that has that practice -Port Kar


Very much an Onlinism for the northern lands


This, but at the same time I don't believe that Torvies did the whole contract thing. At least, that was the general consensus that last time this topic came up. If I remember correctly, more focus was put on the practice of seeking her out from her family as a companion. Whether that was by simply asking her father/brother/etc for permission, or paying a dowry, I don't know.
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EricT Sapphire
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« 26. December 2012, 04:32:18 »
“Port Kar does not recognize the Free Companionship, but there are free women in the city, who are known simply as the women of their men.” Raiders of Gor, p. 295

That's the only gorean city that has that practice -Port Kar


Very much an Onlinism for the northern lands


This, but at the same time I don't believe that Torvies did the whole contract thing. At least, that was the general consensus that last time this topic came up. If I remember correctly, more focus was put on the practice of seeking her out from her family as a companion. Whether that was by simply asking her father/brother/etc for permission, or paying a dowry, I don't know.

I would agree...that it would be done as a arranged marriage, like the norse of earth practiced.
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Revenge Sempati
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« 26. December 2012, 07:06:22 »
There is also the concept of the "kept woman" which was in Rogue of Gor, Jason and Beverly for the brief time she was free in port city of Victoria.  While yes they are both of Earth and have different views of such things the passges suggest such arrangements would not be completely unknown on Gor.  Neither a FC or slave to Jason, but under his care and protection.

It is either plot device for the book de jour, or perhaps that maybe, just maybe, in a large world that more than 3 options exist for nature of relationships.
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Aphris Myoo
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« 26. December 2012, 10:33:34 »
2.  One thing about the North that is different then the south, is that the men do whatever they want with the women.  In the south to be enslaved in her homestone, a free woman would have to face a magistrate.  While in the north, a man only has to throw her in a circle he draws in the dirt and "legally" by torvie law she is now a slave.  So if a man can "claim" a woman as a slave just by throwing her in a circle, is it a leap for him to "claim" a woman as his companion/mate just by taking her home with him?

"'Go to the bond-maid circle,' said Ivar Forkbeard, indicating the circle he had drawn in the dirt. The women cried out in misery. To enter the circle, if one is a female, is, by the laws of Torvaldsland, to declare oneself a bond-maid. A woman, of course, need not enter the circle of her own free will. She may, for example be thrown within it naked and bound. Howsoever, she enters the circle, voluntarily or by force, free or secured, she emerges from it, by the laws of Torvaldsland, as a bond-maid."
Marauders of Gor, pg. 44-45


I disagree, your example is for not Torvie women. Like in cities, you don't throw randomly women of own group in the circle. Family and friends will protect her. If she is without protectors, she has a problem., but thats the same as every where in Gor.

Quote from: Marauders of Gor
"I do not care much for the making of women of
Torvaldsland bond," said Ivar. "It seems improper," he
whispered to me. "They are of Torvaldsland!"

Mind that Bera was only made slave AFTER the Kurii collared her. Before that it was unthinkable.
« Last Edit: 26. December 2012, 10:35:02 by Aphris Myoo » Logged

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Caranda Schreiner
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« 26. December 2012, 11:55:47 »
Claiming a FW, that is, forcing her into companionship against her will, is an onlineism both in Gor generally and also specifically in Torvaldsland.  The quotes from Marauders are about winning a FW as a slave, not as a companion.  The same goes for the shacking up type relationships between FM and FW in Port Kar.  All the examples of the latter in the books are consensual and there is nothing to suggest it is ever otherwise.

The closest you get to a forced companionship in the books are cases where young girls (and sometimes young men) are browbeaten into companionships that their families desire for economic or status reasons but ultimately the FW does have the last word if she has the nerve to refuse her family's wishes, there are references in the books to FW declining multiple suitors.
« Last Edit: 26. December 2012, 11:58:16 by Caranda Schreiner » Logged

It is regarded as right to enslave a natural slave
Junea Demonia
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« 26. December 2012, 12:12:12 »
In the south to be enslaved in her homestone, a free woman would have to face a magistrate. 


Free women in the south can be sold into slavery by their fathers - or whoever male family member is in charge of them. So - a southern free women would not always face a magistrate when being enslaved. A daughter might just simply sold into slavery to settle some debts - or just because she is nuisance  Wink

That whole protection thing of FW in the south is often overplayed in sl gor.
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« 26. December 2012, 14:57:02 »
I can't find the quote but I remember the Forkbeard saying he did not approve of collaring free women of Torvaldsland. However, on p75 of Marauders he says "the daughter of Thorgard of Scagnar will be my bond-maid."

I suppose you could argue that the Forkbeard only collared Hilda after it was clear she wanted to be his bond and so he didn't really collar a free woman.  Smiley
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Clovisb Resident
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« 26. December 2012, 15:06:03 »
And then ofcourse there was Haakon of Skjern, mercenary tarnsman that raided the villages in Torvaldsland for blondes to sell them to Targo, a southern slaver, in captive of Gor.

It shows how widely different morals some of the characters had in the books, something often underplayed in SL Gor itself.
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Caranda Schreiner
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« 26. December 2012, 17:03:17 »
I suppose you could also argue that Ivar didn't consider Scagnar to be part of Torvaldsland and hence its women were fair game for the collar?
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It is regarded as right to enslave a natural slave
Connor Taselian
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« 26. December 2012, 17:08:44 »
Also worth noting that Hilda was part of his wergild, as set by the Bluetooth.
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« 26. December 2012, 19:01:01 »
I can't find the quote but I remember the Forkbeard saying he did not approve of collaring free women of Torvaldsland. However, on p75 of Marauders he says "the daughter of Thorgard of Scagnar will be my bond-maid."

I suppose you could argue that the Forkbeard only collared Hilda after it was clear she wanted to be his bond and so he didn't really collar a free woman.  Smiley

But Thorgard was his enemy when i recall it right. So its fine. Not everyone had Forkbeards or Bluetooth mindset anyway and its stupid when the women of torvaldsland claim that they are your kin and you have to be all friendly with them. Thats just wrong. If they are not of the village, they just cannot expect the men not to see them as a welcome bait.
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Connor Taselian
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« 26. December 2012, 19:32:49 »
Even when they are of the same village or holding, I don't quite "get" this whole idea of everyone being kin because of it. Its like people take the absence of a Home Stone, and replace it with "Hey! We're all family!".
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