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Author Topic: The Slave Paces! Oh, wait I mean the Litanies!  (Read 2284 times)
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Kail Lefevre
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Com'on! It's not Rocket Surgery!


« 04. May 2017, 23:04:05 »

*Disclaimer* This post is going to be one of my long ones. Longer then normal. If you read it all, bless ya. If not, eh. I understand.


In all seriousness I think most of us have been around enough now to know that put a slave through her paces, did not mean to stand there and ask her questions that had specific answers. I'm not going to spend a log of time on that part of this. I'll simply say this and move on. In Assassins of Gor a list of questions was given that had answers a girl was expected to know the answers to by rote. John Norman never gave a proper name for this process until one of his later books, one of the newer ones. That name was litanies. To put a slave through her paces meant to command her through a series of slave poses and movements. We all clear on that? Good. Moving on.


Below is the passage from Assassins, at least the litanies part.

Quote
Q: What are you?
A: I am a slave girl.
Q: What is a slave girl?
A: A girl who is owned.
Q: Why do you wear a brand?
A: To show that I am owned.
Q: Why do you wear a collar?
A: That men may know who owns me.
Q: What does a slave girl want more than anything?
A: To please men.
Q: What are you?
A: I am a slave girl.
Q: What do you want more than anything?
A: To please men."

As we can see this list of litanies is very close to the list most people know as the slave paces, those read as follows...

Quote
What are you girl
You will answer, "This girl is a slave, Master! or Mistress! la kajira!"

What does being a slave mean on Gor, beast?
You will answer, "It means a girl is property and owned,
Master! or Mistress! "

What are your duties beast?
You will answer, "A girl's duties are exquisite beauty and
absolute obedience, Master! or Mistress! "

How do you fulfill your duties, slut?
You will answer, "A girl is to serve, please and be pleasing
to all Free Persons, Master!  "

When may a slave speak a Free Person's name, slut?
You will answer, "A slave may never speak the name of a
Free Person, unless the Free Person has granted the slave
permission, Master! or Mistress! "

When may a slave say 'NO' to or question a command given
by a Free Person, beast?
You will answer, "Never, Master or Mistress!"

A slave is always permitted the last words in a discussion. What are they?
You will answer, "Yes, Master! or Mistress! "

Who may punish you slut and why?
You will answer, "Any Free Person may punish this girl if she
is displeasing.

How are you supposed to serve?
You will answer, "A slave must serve and please as if her
life depends on it. For it very well may."

I'm not sure where the other questions cropped up from and why this is different then what is in the book, maybe it is out of one of the slave books I didn't read. No matter it isn't important.


"Okay Kail what is your point in this?" I know that is what you are asking your self right about now. Every now and again some slaver will rattle these off to a slave, one version or another, maybe even a free might put the slave to the test. Over all though these litanies seem highly under valued. Sure the slaves that answer them when put on the spot are rather proud of them selves when they can answer.  Sure the free are pleased when the slaves they are speaking to answer them correctly also. More so when they answer precisely. I'm sure many a slaver out there would tell me they value these litanies perfectly.

Do they though?

How important is it in people's minds that the slaves be able to answer these? How important do you think it is for the common free to know them? I think that to most people's way of thinking that if the free don't know them it isn't important and I think if pressed other then the passing reasoning of " Every slave should know them" that people really don't care if slaves know them either. I could be wrong. Maybe people care about the slaves knowing them more then I figure. Please, don't reply debating this point. This is not really the topic.

"What is the topic then Kail, man you are really starting to annoy me on this post." I might be saying.

I think what ever the current level of care people have for slaves knowing these it is still very under valued and when it comes to the free knowing these that is woefully undervalued. More over I think that many people ask and recite these litanies without ever really giving the meaning behind them very much thought. I know this is true when it comes to the free.

I'll get back to this in a moment to explain, but first I want to share a story.

One time in Rorus when I was practicing my birth caste because of issues we will not cover here, I was having one of my low moments and nearly quit. Okay I did quit. I left groups and took my ball and went home. I don't even remember why right now other then I was justifiably pissed. Still leaving groups was still an over reaction and within a day I asked for my groups back and moved back in as if nothing had happened.

The day I came back one of the kennel slaves that was very fond of me as her slaver heard I had returned. At the same time a pair of people new to the sim told the girl to give them a tour, and she agreed to it(not like she had a choice). However the girl bee-lined it right for me to welcome me back to the village and this naturally upset the pair. After all they wanted a tour, not to meet me out on the middle of the street. Naturally they complained about the slave to me and demanded I do something about her. Which I did. Of course.

However I knew this girl and knew she didn't fully understand what she had done wrong. In her mind she was still obeying them, just with one small pit stop to welcome me back. As slaver it was my job to train and sell. The girl needed to understand what she did wrong so it didn't happen again. Sure I could of taken my goad out and just hit her a bunch. Most would of. That just didn't seem like it addressed the issue that caused her to fail in her service.

So I started to questiont he girl on her litanies, I knew she knew them, but I had her cover them again with me because I could tell she knew them, but didn't understand them. She had not valued them enough to see past simple line of dialog to see the meaning. Well the couple standing there, they didn't see it either. That were waiting for the goad to come out and that just was not going to happen. I had plans for the girl's punishment and it involved covering the litanies and then her crawling over to the paid of them with a five tailed slave whip in her mouth and begging them to forgive her and begging for lashes.

What can I say, it is the days of instant gratification, and here I was talking to the girl they wanted beat. They walked off in a huff. Poor them. Lets take a moment to mourn their wounded egos.

Okay, that's enough time. The point is they nor the girl got it.

It has been years now since this story took place, but as I sit here today off work because a fucking deer ran into my car and smashed in the side, I think on this as I think about what lessons I wish to impart onto my tavern slaves and I can't help think... people still don't understand the importance of these litanies. Not when I recently heard some one say "we are told to refuse sweets"

Huh? Look, I'm a free man, slaves don't refuse us shit! Slaves obey, and if that means eating a chocolate from my hand even when you're not allowed sweets, then tough shit on your rules because; slaves obey. If you don't get this then you don't understand the true value of the litanies. You don't get them if you think it is okay to tell a slave to refuse another free.



Before I get more into this, I want to address the elephant in the room. The second set of litanies are not part of the quotes from assassins. I don't know of and in my research have not run across the second list, but... In Assassins, it does go on to say in the book

Quote
There is, beyond these, an entire set of questions and
answers, some of them considerably more detailed, and
involving standard responses to simple questions pertaining
to such matters as history and psychology.

So we have to look at the litanies added to our community via onlinism and choose to discard them or use them. The passage in the book does allow of other litanies. It just so happens we have quotes in the books that do support some of these added litanies. Others of them we know are common sense and really should not be questioned.

What are your duties beast?
You will answer, "A girl's duties are exquisite beauty and
absolute obedience, Master! or Mistress! "

Quote
“I am afraid,” I said.
“Do not be afraid,” said Sucha.
“What are my duties?” I asked.
“Exquisite beauty and absolute obedience,” said Sucha.


Who may punish you slut and why?
You will answer, "Any Free Person may punish this girl if she
is displeasing.


Quote
“The discipline of a slave,” I said, “may be attended to by
any free person, otherwise she might do much what she
wished, provided only her master did not learn of it.” The
legal principle was clear, and had been upheld in several
courts, in several cities, including Ar.

How do you fulfill your duties, slut?
You will answer, "A girl is to serve, please and be pleasing
to all Free Persons, Master! "


-AND-


How are you supposed to serve?
You will answer, "A slave must serve and please as if her
life depends on it. For it very well may."


-AND-

A slave is always permitted the last words in a discussion. What are they?
You will answer, "Yes, Master! or Mistress! "


These are just common sense, any one having read any of the books knows that slaves live better lives when they are pleasing. Including them in the litanies hurts nothing and only enforces common sense.

There are two of these litanies from the onlinism list that should be discarded completely in my opinion because they are wrong at least in how they are presented. These two are.

When may a slave speak a Free Person's name, slut?
You will answer, "A slave may never speak the name of a
Free Person, unless the Free Person has granted the slave
permission, Master! or Mistress! "


-AND-

When may a slave say 'NO' to or question a command given
by a Free Person, beast?
You will answer, "Never, Master or Mistress!"


So the first one, well that is just simply incorrect from start to finish, and what's more is the single most driving factor behind the idiot trend of slaves telling my self and others that their owner doesn't allow them to say their name. I have loads of quotes of slaves being asked the name of their owners and the slaves answer flat out without hesitation, issue, or punishment. A slave does not address a free by their name. speaking said name in answer to a question is 100% allowable. Sorry if this breaks your bubble reader.

Quote
“So, Slave Girl,” said I, “who is your master?”
530
“My master?”
“Yes, Slave Girl.”
“Slave girl?”
“Yes,” I said, “—slave girl.”
She drew herself up, angrily, proudly. “Ibn Saran,” she
said, “the master of the very kasbah itself, the Salt Ubar, the
Guard of the Dunes, is my master!”

Quote
“Who is your master, little vulo?” asked Tup Ladletender of
me.
“My master is Thurnus,” I said, “caste leader in Tabuk’s
Ford, of the caste of peasants, one who makes fields fruitful
and is, too, a trainer of sleen.” I was proud of Thurnus, who
owned me.

There is one quote where the girl was reluctant, but that is because she was not allowed to speak at all. Notice though, she finds reason to speak soon enough.

Quote
“Who is your master?” I asked.
“We are not permitted to speak in coffle,” she said. “Oh!”
she said. My hand had tightened on her neck.
“Who is your master?” I asked, walking behind her.
“Oneander of Ar,” she said, “of the Merchants. He does
business in Vonda.”

As for the second litany there, being able to say no is important. No is a perfectly reasonable word with real uses. For the longest time I've taken to rephrasing that one all together to

Q: "When are you allowed to refuse a command given by a free person?"
A: "Never, Master!"

Far better worded that way and really gets the intention of the original question. In my opinion.


With that in mind I believe a SL list of litanies should really read like this.

Quote
Q: What are you?
A: I am a slave girl.
Q: What is a slave girl?
A: A girl who is owned.
Q: Why do you wear a brand?
A: To show that I am owned.
Q: Why do you wear a collar?
A: That men may know who owns me.
Q: What does a slave girl want more than anything?
A: To please men.
Q: What are you?
A: I am a slave girl.
Q: What do you want more than anything?
A: To please men.
Q: "When are you allowed to refuse a command given by a free person?"
A: "Never, Master!"
Q: What two words is a slave always permitted as the last words in a discussion?
A: "Yes, Master! or Mistress! "
Q: "What are your duties beast?"
A: "My duties are exquisite beauty and absolute obedience."
Q: "How do you fulfill your duties, slut?"
A: "I will serve, please and be pleasing to all Free People."
Q: "Who may punish you slut and why?"
A: "Any Free Person may punish me if I is displeasing."
Q: "How are you supposed to serve?
A: "I must serve and please as if my life depends on it. For it very well may."

Disagree? Well that is your right, but man if you got to this far and don't agree with me boy are you going to be pissed you read this much given that the rest of this thread is hinged on you agreeing, or at least willing to entertain that for SL gor the above list is a better more comprehensive list then going only by the quote from Assassins or using the old outdated onlinism list that was called the slave paces.

Okay. So here we are the last section of this thread. If you got this far, give your self a cookie. No really, go get a cookie or a couple of them some milk and treat your self.

Got your cookies and milk? Good lets continue.

If we don't teach slaves and our selves these litanies then we continue to turn a blind eye to part of gor that is one of it's pillars. Slavery. Below are some point for point personal insights into the litanies and why I think it is important both free and slaves alike know them and better still, understand them.

Why do you wear the brand, to show we are owned. Why do you wear the collar, to show who owns us.
Yet we continue to see vanity brands, people coming up with their own unique brands. Slaves in Gor had high turn over in the books. This is why you used generic brands. You'd never want to own a slave wearing the brand of your Home Stone's sworn enemy. This is why most brands were simple. The kef or the dina for the most part. Sure the north and nomads had their own also, but a person having their own? No point to it.

Q: What is a slave girl?
A: A girl who is owned.


There are a number of slaves that have complained about sims with rules that send a slave coming to the gates right to the kennel. They give fairly good reasons for why it shouldn't be. However, here is the thing.... What is a slave girl? It is a girl that is owned. If you're at the gate and not owned, you're not a slave. If you are not a slave then there is only one other thing you can be, a free woman dressed less then modestly at the gate. When you do that you are breaking modestly laws of many of those cities and in would in that case be arrested and more then likely sent to the public slave house by the courts. In the end you're in the slave house. So dislike it or not, entering the city unowned and you ending up in the kennel is the correct action. If slave girls understood this litany better they might find other ways of getting into a city that would allow them to get what they really want. Hey, why not come in dressed like a free woman, npc a guard. Get in and role play for a day or two. Find the man or woman you want to own you and then submit!

Q: What does a slave girl want more than anything?
A: To please men.


Okay this one is loaded. That this is one of the Assassins of Gor litanies means alot. I mean A LOT. These litanies are taught so that the girls are brain washed by them

Quote
The truly sinister aspect of even this portion of the girls’
training did not become evident to me, or to Elizabeth, until
the entire next week was spent again before the mirror,
seeing themselves as slave girls, and repeating, aloud, these
questions and answers, as though putting them to
themselves; as though, with Flaminius gone, it was they
themselves, the girls, who were putting these questions to
themselves, and responding with almost hypnotic
automatism

This litany is taught, I suspect, not because the men want willing sex objects, but to program the slaves obey a man over a woman. I couldn't find the quote but it is there in one of the books where a slave girl refuses to help a woman in trouble because the man she is trouble with commands the slave, and the slave blindly follows the man's command over the woman's even though I believe the woman is the slave's owner. If I am right and I believe I am, then slaves in Gor are brainwashed to obey men over women. While exceptions would exist, it would be mainly due to the brainwashing not having the same effect on every one the same way.

Last but not in any way least...

A: "My duties are exquisite beauty and absolute obedience."
Q: "How do you fulfill your duties, slut?"
A: "I will serve, please and be pleasing to all Free People."
Q: "Who may punish you slut and why?"
A: "Any Free Person may punish me if I is displeasing."
Q: "How are you supposed to serve?
A: "I must serve and please as if my life depends on it. For it very well may."


These four go together, hand in hand, each one enforcing the other.

Anyone can punish you, so please, be pleasing, do your duty because your life depends on it. Even exquisite beaut means more then simple physical beauty. It has to or a plain looking slave would fail in her duty every day. If you are pleasing, if you are putting your best self forward to the free you are beautiful. When you are a moody slave, when you are letting your world get you down, when you are doing less then your best, you're not doing your duty.

But wait. This is just rp. RL will intrude and you can't be expected to be at your best all the time. Any one busting your ass for failing to reach that state every day is an ass hole. If you are doing your best and still getting shit, you might need to ignore there shit and do your best. RL over SL every time.

That said, your character's IC actions can only be excused so far even by the most patient of people. When you are not living up to the exquisite beauty duty you can be punished. By entering role play you agree by implied consent to face the music if a free calls you out on not being your best.

Exquisite beauty can mean physical looks, but it is far far more about how you carry your self.

Absolute Obedience. This is the one that the free need to understand more then the slaves. If you tell your slave to refuse treats from other free, your are telling them to disobey. You are telling them " Be a bad slave" When you tell your slave never say my name even if some one asks for it, you are telling them " Be a bad slave"

Absolute "means not qualified or diminished in any way; total." I used to tell my kennel girls, look I have rules for you as your slaver. If some one you are serving orders you to an action that breaks my rules, calmly explain you would be happy to serve but the free should know that if they obey they will be breaking a rule of the slavers. Having said that my rule for them stated if the free insists farther having been informed of my rules, disobey my rule and obey the person you are serving. Then come tell me later what happened. I'd rather the slave disobey my rule then disobey someone they are serving. In the end it is because in the books that slave would never disobey a direct command. Even as a warrior, a warrior for hire no less, I still tell my girls and the tavern girls this.

In OOC chats I see free to this day complain about a slave or group of slaves behaving in a given manner, and more often then not this behavior is commanded by their owners or by another free. It is one thing to give the slave shit in IC because of it, but another all together to carry that over to ooc chat. The sooner people grasp  the absolute part of absolute obedience the sooner that one aspect of Gor will right it self. In my opinion. 
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Reputation is what other people know about you.Honor is what you know about yourself.There is no more hollow feeling than to stand with your honor shattered at your feet while soaring public reputation wraps you in rewards.That’s soul-destroying.The other way around is merely irritating -L.M.Bujold
Kail Lefevre
lives here
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Posts: 761


Com'on! It's not Rocket Surgery!


« 04. May 2017, 23:04:28 »
Holy shit that was a long post.
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Reputation is what other people know about you.Honor is what you know about yourself.There is no more hollow feeling than to stand with your honor shattered at your feet while soaring public reputation wraps you in rewards.That’s soul-destroying.The other way around is merely irritating -L.M.Bujold
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Posts: 29


« 05. May 2017, 12:34:58 »
Actually, those who the onlineism of slave paces which are confused with the litanies, are mostly those who play a free and especially, slavers....

I notice that many people in SL Gor, who play a free, want absolutely to teach their role to slave players. Slaves lack this, slaves need to grow, slaves need to learn, slaves are princess, slaves don't know that, blah blah blah... I will not open the debate on the way they address this issue, on the form which often makes me wonder if these people realize that there is no slave, no free, but role players in a role play game. Since I play a slave (a few months), I often got the unpleasant impression that some people tried to train the typist  (and the typist bothered herself in reading the 34 books) instead of my character (which is still not at her full potential). Don't take offense, Kail, and let me quote an example to illustrate my purpose:

You said:

"Anyone can punish you, so please, be pleasing, do your duty because your life depends on it. Even exquisite beaut means more then simple physical beauty. It has to or a plain looking slave would fail in her duty every day. If you are pleasing, if you are putting your best self forward to the free you are beautiful. When you are a moody slave, when you are letting your world get you down, when you are doing less then your best, you're not doing your duty."

I can tell you that I have many friends and RP partners who feel a bit uncomfortable in being addressed, OOCly, in a discussion about the proper way to play the role of slave, with "you"... With this form, you are talking to your fellow rpers, who play a slave, as if they were slaves... I'm not telling you are thinking that we are real slaves behind our screen. I'm sure you are not. But still, it's the impression which is given, an impression that doesn't encourage people to enforce the OOC equality (something that is not well enforced in SL Gor, unlike in other RP environments, I noticed). Let's rephrase this quote:

"Anyone can punish a slave, in Gor, a slave girl must be pleasing, do her duty because her life depends on it. Even exquisite beauty means more then simple physical beauty. It has to or a plain looking slave would fail in her duty every day. If the slaves are pleasing, if they are putting their best self forward to the free, they are beautiful. When a girl is a moody slave, when she is letting her world get her down, when she is doing less than her best, she is not doing her duty."

The interest of this form is that it teaches all role players, not just those who play a slave. It's my opinion that whatever your role, you shold always be familiar with the way that other roles must be properly played. Not just your.

But see, I would like that we spend the same energy at correcting the rp of those who a free man or free woman and who, for too many, don't even know their role and some cultural basic (like the concept of home stone and caste, almost always and exclusively liked to a concept of place of residence and a mere job), who continue to enforce these onlineisms in the sim rules they write, or those who yell that a slave is untrained because she didn't greet them (which slaves seldom do in the books actually...) or didn't greet the free first (there is no thing like greeting order in the books) I won't give name of sims, I guess it's not allowed in this forum.

BUt I transgress... In my opinion, no slave player needs to understand really the values of the litanies, actually. They are mostly a part of slave training, in character, a fictional point. I play a slave, me the typist gives zero value to this shit, I'm not a slave. But my character (a slave) has been taught them of course, she knew their meaning (not to mention she is Gorean born, formerly of high caste, so, well accustomed to the way slaves are treated and considered).

I'm not telling that the character shouldn't understand the meaning of the litanies though. I merely mean that the typist beihind the fictional character of a slave should - before all - know her role, should have studied it. It's ok for the character to think that she should always obey to her master and not to the last free who commanded her in absence of her owner. It's perfectly ok for the character to think that only her master can punish her. These situations happen in the books. I myself RPed them and if my character hadn't worn the black tunic and collar making clear she was owned by a member of the black caste, she would have certainly found herself severely corrected. But the little arrogant she-sleen knew her power. It's unlikely that the average man will touch a slave owned by an assassin, she knew it. The scene was super fun (always a pleasure to play with people who know  the books).

But it's not ok for the typist to ignore these points (like the one you pointed out), They are basics of the role. So. I don't think there is a real need to build an argumentation based on the litanies (especially the SL-Gor ones.....) for this purpose (after all, let not forget they are somewhat,a brainwashing, in training....) The simple use of quotes with an explanation of the context is sufficient. The litanies (those of the books) are just another quote (and should be added as quote)

(PS: I hope that slave players are no longer required to give tours in  SL-Gor 2017... In Gor, strangers are potential enemies, they are welcome with some suspicion, not offered a touristic tour. If tourm it should rather be OOC and given by a sim admin (or any player volunteering)




You'd never want to own a slave wearing the brand of your Home Stone's sworn enemy. This is why most brands were simple. The kef or the dina for the most part. Sure the north and nomads had their own also, but a person having their own? No point to it.

Not totally exact... Treve used a specific brand, I see nothing preventing an Arian man to own a girl who has been branded in Treve, the enemy. There is mention too of collectors, men who buy slaves mostly for their particular brand. But you are right, the majority of slave girls get a common brand.


There are a number of slaves that have complained about sims with rules that send a slave coming to the gates right to the kennel. They give fairly good reasons for why it shouldn't be. However, here is the thing.... What is a slave girl? It is a girl that is owned. If you're at the gate and not owned, you're not a slave. If you are not a slave then there is only one other thing you can be, a free woman dressed less then modestly at the gate. When you do that you are breaking modestly laws of many of those cities and in would in that case be arrested and more then likely sent to the public slave house by the courts. In the end you're in the slave house. So dislike it or not, entering the city unowned and you ending up in the kennel is the correct action. If slave girls understood this litany better they might find other ways of getting into a city that would allow them to get what they really want. Hey, why not come in dressed like a free woman, npc a guard. Get in and role play for a day or two. Find the man or woman you want to own you and then submit!

I believed this for long, then I progressed in my reading and so, realized that I had been wrong (see the "unowned slaves" topic). Those books are fucking annoying and make you want to force Norman to eat them with their cover especially becausethe non sense he develops about women. But they are your best teachers and expand your creativity as well (because some situations happening in the books, totally cultural that you would have never figured out by yourself). Eh, so far, Gor is still the RP environment which challenged my creativity the most.


This litany is taught, I suspect, not because the men want willing sex objects, but to program the slaves obey a man over a woman. I couldn't find the quote but it is there in one of the books where a slave girl refuses to help a woman in trouble because the man she is trouble with commands the slave, and the slave blindly follows the man's command over the woman's even though I believe the woman is the slave's owner. If I am right and I believe I am, then slaves in Gor are brainwashed to obey men over women. While exceptions would exist, it would be mainly due to the brainwashing not having the same effect on every one the same way.

It's in Slave Girl of Gor. Judy is under the ownership of Lady Elicia of Ar, who is in fact, a Barbarian. And she is well aware that Tarl Cabot will arrive and enslave her mistress. In fact, she knows that she doesn't really belong to Elicia, because the barbarian status of this one and her next fate.
It is true, however, that slaves girls will spontaneously obey first to a man. But in general, when a man is in position of commanding a slave owned by a FW against the will of this one, it tends to mean that the FW is not in a situation to bargain and oppose... Also, we have many examples of slaves girls, who, although they are serving men, will immediately, without being instructed in this sense, close their knees and put their head to the floor, in deference for the FW, and in fear. No slave girl, even in presence of a FM, wants to displeasing a FW, and this for her own safety, FW being incredibly cruel to kajirae... As it is rare for a free man to want to offend a FW.


But wait. This is just rp. RL will intrude and you can't be expected to be at your best all the time. Any one busting your ass for failing to reach that state every day is an ass hole. If you are doing your best and still getting shit, you might need to ignore there shit and do your best. RL over SL every time.

Role play basic, applies to everyone, I would mention (although this topic treats of slave RP). At the end, whatever your role, RP it the best you can, be creative, sometimes you will be very inspired, other times, well, no (let'S shopping instead....!). But again, you can RP a free man or woman with no honor (there are many examples in the books), an uncompetent physician, a messy scribe or a worthless slave, just do in a way that will fit the Gorean culture and its particular mentality (study your role before engaging in RP)


That said, your character's IC actions can only be excused so far even by the most patient of people.

There are example of nice and lenient men, in the books, yes.

When you are not living up to the exquisite beauty duty you can be punished.
Yes, if you choose to make of your character a slave who rebels, definitely, she will probably be cuffed or whipped, or deprived of food, etc...


By entering role play you agree by implied consent to face the music if a free calls you out on not being your best.

Everyone entering in role play accept to expose their character to IC consequences for IC actions (OOC, we can share a drink and go watch a movie on netflix after the RP...!)

In OOC chats I see free to this day complain about a slave or group of slaves behaving in a given manner, and more often then not this behavior is commanded by their owners or by another free. It is one thing to give the slave shit in IC because of it, but another all together to carry that over to ooc chat. The sooner people grasp  the absolute part of absolute obedience the sooner that one aspect of Gor will right it self. In my opinion. 


Still in my opinion, those who play a slave should first be able to tell their RP partners who play the master or any other free that they are requiring from their slave character an action which is not supported by the books. They should just decline to play this part. Easy to do, believe me, I did it with no drama. Most people, when you are firm, will not insist. Plus, RP is a collaborative game. It would be expected, when you play a character in an IC master/slave tandem, that you talk about your characters, the story, share ideas and suggestions.
And as I said, these people who complain should as well focuse a bit less on slave players' fails and rather start correcting their owns lacks...

Else, I have read all this post  Grin (rewarding myself with a mars)
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Kail Lefevre
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« 05. May 2017, 16:59:02 »
"I see your swarts is as big as mine" - Spaceballs

A nice lengthy post in answer there.  I likey. However I think some of what I was saying got lost. Let me see if I can find a road map.

The importance of knowing these litanies, in my belief, is more key to the free then to the slaves. I almost got the impression that you felt I aimed this at slave role players. You said "But see, I would like that we spend the same energy at correcting the rp of those who a free man or free woman and who, for too many, don't even know their role and some cultural basic." For me the larger part of my post is really about the free not understanding the value in the litanies. How more often then not when they appear in role play it comes across more like a parlor trick, or maybe it is better phrased, like showing of a trained dog. They ask the questions get their answers and think nothing else of it. If the free and slaves don't understand the point of them then they really are nothing more then window dressing.

You pointed out that some cities did have their own brand. That is fine, but a city is not a man. The collar is still the defining method of shown own owns you. Banding a big ass DM on the girl's leg with some squilly lines around it to make it look cool, just because your ego is too big to allow you to use a common brand only devalues the slave.

You pointed out right from the start that you feel the free some times try to train the typist, not the character. For my self and what I do I think train is the wrong word. I don't know all of Gor, you can read all the books once every year and you will still not know all of it. Someone's reading comprehension will skew your take on the books and in the end you will still end up with a view of Gor that is, even if just small ways, your own. Then there are those like my self that have not read all the books. When you enter role play some times you can just sense the other player doesn't get it. That the fault of the understanding is not the character but the players. It should never be "not okay" to teach some one. Ignorance is rarely a blessing, and knowledge is often power.

As we are here to have fun, if I meet any one who is not grasping a straight forward Gorean concept I will try to address it IC in a way that helps them learn. If I feel the fault lies with the player rather then the character I might expand father on what I'm saying in an effort to help the player get it because if they don't their character never will. You can play your character to not know things you do, but it can be difficult to play your character to know things you don't.

In the example I gave of the slave I had to punish for disobeying the couple, I just had the feeling that the disconnect was the player's understanding rather then the character's. I don't feel I was wrong in going about her instruction in the manner that I did because I kept things IC and while I spoke in a manner I hoped taught the player, I was still respectful of the role play. I've had to defend this, but what people don't get it has nothing to do with her being a slave, and if I were in her shoes I would of accepted learning. I personally love learning. I my self have had others teach me things very much in this same mode.


Now about Slave Girl of Gor and Judy. The common free man of Gor has little reason to be rude to free women, what is more while a slave at the boot of a man might be shielded from thew wrath of a free women while he is there, she will pay for any of her transgressions later when the man is not. Baring this in mind not only would it likely be the man's wish the slave close her legs when free women come, cause they are not rude, but the slave her self would desperately not want to anger the woman in case she was ever at that woman's mercy. So you are right in common interactions the polite thing for the man would be to let the slaves defer to the women's preferences. The brain washing I spoke of would still be there however and when needed applied. Depending on how well the brain washing took on the girl the slave would obey the man more often then not if conflicting commands were presented to her.

With that said I will stick to my guns.

I believe SL Gor would be a better place if the values of the litanies and the meaning of them was better understood and not just used like a dog owner putting on a show.

Knowledge is often power.
Ignorance is rarely bliss.

More good can come from knowing and understanding them better then bad.
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Reputation is what other people know about you.Honor is what you know about yourself.There is no more hollow feeling than to stand with your honor shattered at your feet while soaring public reputation wraps you in rewards.That’s soul-destroying.The other way around is merely irritating -L.M.Bujold
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« 06. May 2017, 00:00:30 »

The importance of knowing these litanies, in my belief, is more key to the free then to the slaves. I almost got the impression that you felt I aimed this at slave role players. You said "But see, I would like that we spend the same energy at correcting the rp of those who a free man or free woman and who, for too many, don't even know their role and some cultural basic." For me the larger part of my post is really about the free not understanding the value in the litanies. How more often then not when they appear in role play it comes across more like a parlor trick, or maybe it is better phrased, like showing of a trained dog. They ask the questions get their answers and think nothing else of it. If the free and slaves don't understand the point of them then they really are nothing more then window dressing.

Actually, the slaves litanies are part of training, they tend to be used as a sort of brainswashing (Assassin of Gor leaves no doubt about this point), so, it is perfectly reasonable to think that many free persons, in Gor (Gor of the books) have probably never understood them, since not all slaves get a training in a slave house. However, most perfectly know what are the duties of a slave, and this, since childhood. I don't see really why a free woman would even bother in making a slave girl recite them.

You pointed out that some cities did have their own brand. That is fine, but a city is not a man. The collar is still the defining method of shown own owns you. Banding a big ass DM on the girl's leg with some squilly lines around it to make it look cool, just because your ego is too big to allow you to use a common brand only devalues the slave.

I pointed out that Treve was the example of one very well known city with a particular brand. This example shows well enough that a man does probably not care much if the slave he owns wear the brand of an enemy city. I would even think that it would be all the opposite, the slave could be part of a loot (in the books, raids by tarnsmen have for purpose the capture of women, free or slaves). I have also reminded you that in the books, some men are collectors and buy slaves because their particular and rare brand (and such brand does not devalue the slave). We may suppose that some slaves are branded with particular marks, by men or cities. As I said, it is obviously not a common practice, though.
But I never gainsay the fact that it's still the collar which identifies the owner. After, if some people in SL Gor enjoy some ugly design, well, tastes and colors... It's just annoying when something uncommon in the books becomes a norm in SL-Gor.


You pointed out right from the start that you feel the free some times try to train the typist, not the character. For my self and what I do I think train is the wrong word. I don't know all of Gor, you can read all the books once every year and you will still not know all of it. Someone's reading comprehension will skew your take on the books and in the end you will still end up with a view of Gor that is, even if just small ways, your own. Then there are those like my self that have not read all the books. When you enter role play some times you can just sense the other player doesn't get it. That the fault of the understanding is not the character but the players. It should never be "not okay" to teach some one. Ignorance is rarely a blessing, and knowledge is often power.

You didn't understand. It's okay to teach the role players, it's not ok to train the role players as if those were the slave and to address them as if they were effectively a slave. And it's even less okay when this teaching tries to make the role player get the sensitivity of a slave. And this is far too common in SL Gor, when because you play a slave, you are expected having the soul of one. I play a slave, but I mostly played a FW. When I played that role, no one expected I could identify to my role, that I could be naturally cruel, petty and disdainful of sex. Since I play a slave, I'm astonished by the number of people who think I should identify to a kajira, feel in my heart the need to please and love to serve etc. Bullshit.  It's why I illustrated my argument in rephrasing one of your paragraphs.

As for the books, you can read them and understand them. You will probably not remembering all little details (often, when I remember a quote, I know non longer in which book it was... Eh, 34 books...). But the books are still important for more important details that some people tend to ignore and think improbable.
I think too that the Gor sims shold be more serious when it comes to recruit role players. In the other RP environment of SL, you have commonly to fill an application (not the joke that many sims use), where your prove you know your role. You have to describe your character background, its skills, flaws, qualities, weaknesses, etc. It forces the role player to do some searches, to get a base on which you will start playing. In SL Gor, you can start playing in knowing nothing. It's problematic.
For example, no slave house should even accept a slave player who knows nothing about this role. Because the role of a slaver is to create stories, to RP his role, certainly not to teach the role to his RP partners. No wonder why so many slaver players in SL Gor get a burn out....

As for teaching in role play, it does not always work. I tried many times to point out people's mistakes in RP, such as a FW wearing a sheer veil or her hair loose. It's mostly a waste of time as the typist will RP that everything she did was right and you are wrong. Yes, for those who play a slave, they know that since slaves must obey, their character has to comply. But try to correct someone when you play a slave yourself and are confronted to some non sense. Example, 2 months ago, some guy, a baker who wanted that my character go serve in the tavern because she was not with her owner. I would have accepted a scene when he grabbed my char with him to the tavern, to keep her at his feet while he would have summonong a NPC paga girl. But no, there were visitors and just, no slave player around. No, the situation didn't make sense. I started to eal this issue in RP. That went no where. I passed in IMs. He never understood. And it was even ridiculous that by her black tunic and collar, my character identified as being owned by an assassin... A simple baker would unlikely dare to use the property of a BC member for his personal use. I gave up and declined the RP. I have been called a princess. I shrugged. People have an ego which doesn't suffer being corrected when their RP doesn't make sense in the Gorean culture and customs.


In the example I gave of the slave I had to punish for disobeying the couple, I just had the feeling that the disconnect was the player's understanding rather then the character's. I don't feel I was wrong in going about her instruction in the manner that I did because I kept things IC and while I spoke in a manner I hoped taught the player, I was still respectful of the role play. I've had to defend this, but what people don't get it has nothing to do with her being a slave, and if I were in her shoes I would of accepted learning. I personally love learning. I my self have had others teach me things very much in this same mode.
When I know for sure that it's the player's understanding which is the issue, I avoid as much as possible to inflict IC consequences. I explain in IMs. The situation you dealt could be addressed IC'ly, but as I said, it's not always the case.


Now about Slave Girl of Gor and Judy. The common free man of Gor has little reason to be rude to free women, what is more while a slave at the boot of a man might be shielded from thew wrath of a free women while he is there, she will pay for any of her transgressions later when the man is not. Baring this in mind not only would it likely be the man's wish the slave close her legs when free women come, cause they are not rude, but the slave her self would desperately not want to anger the woman in case she was ever at that woman's mercy. So you are right in common interactions the polite thing for the man would be to let the slaves defer to the women's preferences. The brain washing I spoke of would still be there however and when needed applied. Depending on how well the brain washing took on the girl the slave would obey the man more often then not if conflicting commands were presented to her.

The terror that the FW inspires to a slave girl is something that is seldom played in SL Gor. As well by slave players and FW players. Pity because this interaction based on hatred, fear, inner envy and jealousy, is a fertile ground for many emotional and intensive scenes and stories.



I believe SL Gor would be a better place if the values of the litanies and the meaning of them was better understood and not just used like a dog owner putting on a show.
The litanies are a detail, really. You don't need to know them by heart, IC as OOC, to know that in Gor, a slave has for primary function to serve, please and obey, that her legal status is one of an animal and that all disobedience will be severely punished. With some quotes, you can easily prove that in absence of their owner, slaves comply to any command given to them, even if contradictory with those of the absent owner.

Knowledge is often power.
Ignorance is rarely bliss.

More good can come from knowing and understanding them better then bad.

Well, as someone who has read the 34 books, many even several times, who studied her role, I will disagree with this point. In SL Gor, ignorance is the bliss. Because you discover the environment, because the mistakes of other don't bother you at the point you just want to stop playing. When I see a guy who portrays a half tuchuk, half torvie whose mother was a panther chieftess, who is FCed to a physician and whose kids will freely choose their caste, (I don't even caricaturate), people who claim a long list of previous home stones and whose family is a mixing of castes, etc etc, believe me, I'm just discouraged and my motivation drops. So, yes for me, the litanies will stop being a detail when people will understand first, the importance of caste and home stone and their true meaning for a Gorean, which is the first pillar of Gor.

Actually, I think there is one category of players who really make the effort to play their role by the books standards and update their knowledges with the last books: Those who play an assassin. 
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Kail Lefevre
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« 12. May 2017, 14:13:03 »
We are not going to agree on every thing and that is okay. It is was opened as a debate, so having read your reply I choose to leave most of our differences.... different. I will however address one point because I've seen with my own eyes recently a gross misunderstand on the part of a free man what the point of a brand is.

There is a man, whose name I can't use on the forum because of some rules about that, and his recent slave that he just lost had a brand on her leg that ran from the tip of her thigh straight down to her knee in big ugly letters with the first four letters of his name. This is clearly in my opinion some one that not only needs to check his ego at the door, but clearly doesn't understand the purpose of the gorean brand or how collars are supposed to work. The meaning of both and what meaning they have for the common gorean are spelled out very clearly in how we brainwash the slaves to know in their sleep. The brand simply means slave, the collar denotes whose slave. A slave owner missing this concept should be enrolled in a litanies class until he too is brain washed. In my not always so humble opinion.
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Reputation is what other people know about you.Honor is what you know about yourself.There is no more hollow feeling than to stand with your honor shattered at your feet while soaring public reputation wraps you in rewards.That’s soul-destroying.The other way around is merely irritating -L.M.Bujold
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« 13. May 2017, 00:49:10 »
Did you read, Kail, the "what do you want from a slaver?" thread? Page 2, the thread had been updated by Ashelia and I had replied in expressing the opinion of many RPers (of those who truly separate IC and OOC) about slaver RP and slave training. You would understand why I tend to be a little bit sensitive when it cones to slave players and why sometimes, the way used to phrase some arguments make me wince.

But don't make me wrong, I'm not telling it's not important to understand the real meaning of slavery, when you role play. It's a primordial point and one of the basics just, not less important than other basics. And my point is that you don't need to know the slave paces. I have read the 34 books, some several times, I RP in SL Gor since 10 years, I can perfectly depict a slave, a FW, a panther girl, in the respect of the culture described in the books. But if you ask me to recite the slave litanies (that unlike so many slaver players in Gor I don't confuse with the slave paces), I will google them because I don't know them by heart and don't even care, especially since my character is an untrained slave (meaning that she hadn't be trained in a slaver house, under the authority of a slave trainer, in the arts of the pleasure, etc etc). But I know what a slave can do, what she cannot do, what makes sense, what doesn't make sense, what is the training of a slave (I could RP a slaver exactly the way it's done in the books), her duties, the different status, what a slave risks following some of her actions and words, etc etc etc. I have 34 books to guide me and challenge my creativity.

You point out these people who don't understand the meaning of the brand. Yes, they are truly annoying, I met some of them myself. Many people RP in Gor without knowing the basics. But those who don't know the litanies or the real meaning of a collar and brand are not less annoying than this baker woman whose slave girl is half naked and dressed with expensive silks +adorned with some jewels. Not more annoying that these people who think that as soon as you sell something you made (baker, blacksmith, etc) you belong to the merchant caste. Not more annoying that people who think it's perfectly acceptable to have for background a character who was born from a Tuchuk and a panther chieftess, or who is half mamba in the city of Ar, or who has a long list of previous home stones, or who has been scribe, then merchant, then physician, now slaver and currently training to be a warrior. Not to mention their IC children who will pick up a caste as if it were some casual job to choose after their secondary...

So, when already many people don't understand the importance that Goreans give to a caste and a home stone, that they very rarely change one or the other (and only under exceptional circumstances), when they mess with the cultural codes in mixing them with the Earth cultural codes, you cannot expect them to understand how slavery works in Gor. The roots are already rotten....

But on the point which interests you, I still consider that you really need quotes (the litanies being only one of these quotes) and an explanation regarding the context of these quotes if you want to teach people. And such teaching should be done in a strict OOC way, with absolutely not IC/OOC mixing tolerated (like people behaving IC in that OOC context).

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Caranda Schreiner
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« 15. May 2017, 07:31:13 »
In the books "slave paces" refers to a series of body poses that a slave may be put through to display herself to a Free person.  As the books describe them they range from the enticingly erotic to the blatantly exposing.

The various litanies (in the form of questions and answers) slaves are taught and have to memorise are a different thing.  There are a few different examples of these and they are different enough to show that there isn't any one standard set of questions and answers but they usually follow a common sort of theme where the girl acknowledges her slavery.
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It is regarded as right to enslave a natural slave
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