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Author Topic: Mic check part trois  (Read 8968 times)
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Kharas
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« 03. July 2017, 06:13:06 »
Also posted on goreanforums.net

So, as my time has been freed up a little bit more lately, I've been looking around Gor again on an alt. Haven't decided yet whether to bring Kharas out of retirement or start fresh with aforementioned alt, figures looking around different sims might help that decision.  But I dunno. Would love to bring Kharas back as he was such a fun character back in the day but I dunno where he'd fit in now.  I made him so loyal to his previous homes (Fina and later Port Cos) that it just doesn't make sense for him to pledge allegiance to another city.  Not to mention his avi is seriously out of date and I'd have to upgrade his look, which would also involve a whole new wardrobe, etc.  So far I've found no mesh shape/skin combos that come anywhere near to the look I had in mind for him. So yeah, might be best to start fresh.

Anyways, some questions/observations:

1. Is it just me or is the overall number of English city-sims down from what it was?  I dunno... so far in my wanderings I haven't seen anything that just took my breath away the way sims like Port Cos, Hochburg, Morihokubu no Yaeichi, Oasis of the Red Scimitar, Ironhall, etc. did back in the day. My mind demands to be much more thoroughly blown.

...what?

On the other hand I see more BTB northern and Tahari sims than I remember, and I haven't made my rounds in all of those yet. Maybe I'll come across a gem at one of those. Actually, since Kharas is a Torvie of sorts, if I find a good northern sim, I could do a "Kharas returns north with southern sensibilities" angle which could be fun, and would take him full circle as that would be the exact opposite of how he started back in the day. STILL sad that Morihokubu no Yaeichi closed years ago. Someone needs to make another real pretty pani sim dammit.  Anyways, any recommendations/suggestions would be welcome.

2. Noticed there's a new meter, the zCZ or something like that?  What's different about it from GM?  Anything particular about it that I need to be aware of, especially from the combat perspective?  I recall one of the biggest complaints about GM was that it was script-heavy, causing lots of lag. I'm guessing this new meter addresses that on some level.

3. Speaking of combat, I've noticed Primus weapons are banned from many sims now. I know Thord's not been on and therefore his weapons have not been updated, but what exactly is the problem with them that they're no longer compatible with updated meters?  Please keep in mind I have zero knowledge of coding or scripting, so put your response in as laymanish of terms as you can muster.  Has there been any discussion on the possibility of someone continuing his work?  Is that even possible?

4. There are some cities STILL doing the whole "check your bow at the gate" thing!!!!  Weren't there like dozens of discussions back in the day that explained how absurd this practice is?  Why???  WHY?HuhHuh

5. I recognized almost no names while I wandered. Makes me wonder if everyone started over on alts, or do we have a new generation of Goreans who took over?

/rant off
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« 04. July 2017, 18:53:47 »
 In my honest and humble opinion...gor in SL is dead.  It is plagued with a very poorly organized community of folks that don't know the books well enough and portray it in their own fashion, like Camelot.  Lack of education along with free women hiding with slave alts, 80% of the black castes being female behind the avis...and black castes like the himuras having families...no sim is BTB.  I suggest going other places for quality roleplay.
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Nakshydil
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« 05. July 2017, 05:03:36 »
In my honest and humble opinion...gor in SL is dead.  It is plagued with a very poorly organized community of folks that don't know the books well enough and portray it in their own fashion, like Camelot.  Lack of education along with free women hiding with slave alts, 80% of the black castes being female behind the avis...and black castes like the himuras having families...no sim is BTB.  I suggest going other places for quality roleplay.

And Gor is the only RP environment in SL where people, when they dont ask what is a NPC or just refuse to use them, mess with the post order, etc, mix IC and OOC, and for example, worry about their fellow RPers' real gender.......................

But seriously? Are you depicting a fictive character who interacts with other fictive characters, or do you enter in role play in expecting you will be able to date the typist or to have some cyber sex session?

Real gender doesn't matter. What matter is the way people play their role. And believe me, playing a character of same gender than your doesn't imply you will even be credible. I met many female typists who bluffed me in playing a male character: Charisma, self confidence, creativity. In fact, they were even better in the role  of a Gorean man than so many real men who try to depict their idea of a Gorean man and whose character is just some boring rigid guy with the charisma of a rotten oyster, who limit their interactions with kajirae to chores, drinks and punishments (usually disproportioned) and build lovey dovey love stories with FW.

Also, no, FW don't hide with slave alts. They are role players who play 2 different characters. I see nothing wrong in experiencing these different roles. Better than FW being enslaved, then freed, then enslaved....

So, Gor is filled with snowflakes, with people whose character pledged loyalty to a dozen of home stones, whose families are a mix of castes and home stones, who are half torvi / half tuchuk, or born from a panther chieftess, or mambas out of Schendi, or that barbarian slave who was a kung-Fu champion on Earth and fear nothing. SL Gor is filled with people who don't even know the basics of this culture (and sometimes, even if they read the books). SL Gor is filled with people who can't forget their Earth morals and ethics when they play their character or on the opposite, try so hard to play properly a Gorean man that they make of their char, a caricature of it. SL Gor is filled with people who cannot separate IC and OOC, who don't understand the concept of OOC equality and treat those who play a slave like a second-class SL resident or kind of child or people who encourage these discriminations.

But the female typists who play a male character are definitely not a problem in SL Gor, save for people who can't separate IC and OOC or some insecure guys who fear to have their ass kicked in combat by one of these rpers.


Kharas:

1. The top 10 BTB sims (taffic) are English speaking. And reading the rules (for all characters, FM, FW, slaves) is often a good indication of what kind of RP one may expect in these sims. The last time I checked, I winced at the many onlineisms that some so-called BTB sims continue to spread.

2. No clue about this new meter. Since a few months, I only RP with my SL partner in private sims  and I have never been fond of meters.

3. Yes I saw that.... But I guess it's not the first controversial about Primus weapons... And indeed, the creator, apparently, is no longer active. I'm curious as well...


4. Yes, sadly and it's fucking ridiculous. When you show up at these gates, you are given some boring RP (And be glad when you're not megatamed), else, you wait, and wait, until someone come open. And it turns into a non sense scene with some FW or slave welcoming your character behind the gate... Funny enough, people complain that SL Gor is not harsh enough, but at the end, they freak out when their character faces a potential danger....

5. Possibly alts, but I know that almost all my friends left Gor for other RP environments where they don't have to bother with the issues I previously listed on this post. I suppose they are not an exception.

Regarding your avatar's apparence, I would say that finding the right combo mesh head / shape / skin, can take a lot of time (especially since there is less choice and options for men). It's however fairly simple with mesh bodies as you have a few talented designers who offer different types which suit most tastes (from the body-builder type to the more average body). After with a mesh hair and outfit, your avatar will look updated. Avoid the flexi prims, they tend to have a high avatar complexity level.



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Kharas
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« 07. July 2017, 07:10:36 »
Y'know I've never really had a problem with snowflake characters. I figure we're all new main protagonists of our own stories, and the protagonists are often cut from a different mold, Tarl himself being a good example. My bigger issue has been the refusal to honor IC consequences based on an insistence that such a character would not be subject to them because of their unique qualities.

Let's take your Kung fu master barbarian girl as an example. If the sim allows earth folks, then I don't see why an earth person who had learned martial arts and can handle him/herself would be a problem. But the person playing said character should be aware that if she unleashes her kung fu fury on a free she'll likely be killed. If she can accept that then I say go for it. If that results in her complaining about how they're not letting her play her character blah blah blah, that's a problem.

So, let's say such an approach to a character results in a confrontation with, let's say, a warrior, and they have a metered fight. If the losing side complains about how "given my role and background you shouldn't have won," then we got a problem.  But if both sides are willing to honor the result of the contest, I don't see the problem and I say let them hash it out and go with it, even if the barbarian girl is the winner. I'd say in that situation, that warrior sucked in his role and needs to train harder.  This has always been one of my biggest complaints about what I saw so often in SL Gor; people making OOC stinks about BTBness in issues that really could have been handled with IC consequences.

Anyways, I'll be updating my outfit(s), but keeping my appearance as is for now.  I just can't find anything in terms of mesh shapes/skins that fit the look I'm going for, and having an appearance that fits my character is more important to me than keeping up with the Joneses. Unless I decide to go with my aforementioned alt. His appearance is not set, so I'd likely start my search with mesh stuff. Bah. I don't know.
« Last Edit: 07. July 2017, 07:21:05 by Kharas » Logged

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« 08. July 2017, 03:46:23 »
The majority of snowflakes characters we have in SL Gor don't fit the culture. Even if this culture is crap and has many implausible aspects, we have to stuck with it in order to create this particular atmosphere which allows usu to immerse our characters in its frame.

So, if the slavers were stupid enough to bring on Gor a girl with kung fu skills which would likely end up being killed, still, yes, in a confrontation with a warrior, the kung fu girl char should be expected to lose. If she wins because a meter allows it, there is definitely a problem. In the books, the matter is pretty clear: Women are physically weaker than men, whatever the context. Yes, it's crap, it's not at all supported by our reality where we have women who develop great combat skills, are soldiers and not less brave and courageous than men, and in our past and even actual history, women proved they could stand the torture like men.

But it's the way Gor is described.

Personally, I have really an issue with these snowflakes. They are too many, they act unrealistically and too often, they don't even understand they are an oddity within the Gorean culture.

People think they will be creative because their character is out of the Gorean limitations. They assume that since Norman didn't describe each Gorean, they are allowed to be out of the norm. That doesn't work that way. Norman described a culture and standards and even the exceptional characters in his books behave, act, within the limitations of this culture. It's why I think that reading the books is really interesting, as it gives a better understanding of the way you can flirt with these limitations.

Be this FW who shows her face, keeps her hair flowing or just exposes her bare neck. But do not RP it as if your character was the normality while those who RP about such unexpected details in a society where FW hide their body, skin and -curves- (sigh, corsets in Gor...), as if they were the oddity.

Your FW character's neck is bare, well visible, not concealed by the veil, the head scarf, her wrists are not concealed by sleeves and gloves, in a high city? Ok, but don't complain if a man RPs he is figuring how a collar would look about this neck or cuffs slapped on these wrists and doesn't express much respect. Because it's the way Gorean men look at the bare neck and wrists of a woman.

Your character displays her face, even her hair? The books state that such women are expecting to catch the eye of a slaver,  they come from families of low station and know that as slaves, if beautiful enough, they could have an easier and more pleasant life. So, RP it, RP how your char is provocative and does it on purpose.

And then, your char becomes the by-the-book snowflake, not the annoying unrealistic one which ruins the experience of people who come to Gor to challenge their own creativity within the limitations of the Gorean culture.

Also, more people should understand this: it's to ordinary characters that the extraordinary tends to happen

I hope that we will see some day, another sim which, like "The Oasis of the Red Scimitar" will again enforce the so particular Gorean cultural standards.
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Kharas
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« 08. July 2017, 04:03:16 »
Well, you said it yourself: "don't complain."  I didn't see anything in the examples you gave that couldn't have been handled with IC consequences.  As I said, if these people start complaining about how we should "let them have their own style" or whatever, then yeah that's a problem.  If they're willing to accept IC consequences for it, then I say let them do their thing.

But that also goes the other way.  For warriors for example (and really I've seen this across the board for various combat roles, but warriors were definitely the biggest culprits), it irritates me when I see them have this entitlement to win.  Yeah I get that in Gorean physics warriors are big strong men.  In Gor they also trained.  So, you want to win a bunch of fights?  Go train.  Go learn the physics of metered combat and spar for hours on end like I and many other SL Gor combatants did.  If you didn't take the time to do that and spent all your time chasing down slaves and FCs to get on, then don't whine when the aforementioned barbarian kung fu master girl, or for example my Scribe alt, kicks your ass.  You didn't train, the IC consequence is that you lose.  Accept it.

I don't have a Scribe alt btw, I'm just being hyperbolic.
« Last Edit: 08. July 2017, 04:04:02 by Kharas » Logged

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« 08. July 2017, 08:21:08 »
I think you didn't get my point. The problem of these snowflakes is that they complain a lot as soon as they are faced with their oddities, They don't accept they are odd, they don't accept they don't fit the Gorean culture. They refuse to RP their weirdness the way it will make them fit this culture.

I'm personally tired of FW wearing heavy makeup, wearing a corset, not veiled because they have been told that low caste FW don't veil (and the books explain in what consequences, these FW may not wear a veil), of slaves who fear nothing and are never tormented by their sexual needs, of men who are prude and consider slave girls not like desirable women they would like to fuck but as servants for drink and laundries.

There are oddities you can deal ICly if the player is aware to be out of the norm and will accept consequences. But most times, the player refuses to acknowledge their oddity. It's usually the case of FW players who wear loose hair and / or a sheer veil and argue that it's perfectly BTB for a FW. No it's not, it's not even plausible. So, unless you want to involve your character in a silly scene that doesn't make sense, better just walk away.

As for the meter, no, I disagree with your point. Anyone can be skilled with a meter. It doesn't give you an excuse to st a situation which is unrealistic. A slave girl picking up a sword and defeating two warriors in an IC scene is not a plausible situation in Gor. Not even a chance. You must reconcile your meter combat skills with the character you play. And it's when we reach the GM limits. It's impossible... So, you are a skilled GM fighter, you play the average scribe, but you have a sword (and in his background, your char never trained) and you down a warrior ? It's stupid.

I see no reason justifying that the meter should impose you the choice of a character. I met men playing a warrior and playing is wonderfully well. But for X reasons, from lack of time to practice or a PC which causes lag, they were not great at GM combat.

And don't make me wrong, I'm not anti-meter. I think a raid is something funny to play or watch (especially when well organized with a purpose, a stake....) I raided in GE and got a lot of fun and excitation. But in role play, being able to play properly a character, to make it credible, should not be a question of meter skills.

It's why, for a duel, I tend to prefer the text / dices combat with stats determined by your role and background. It's far more realistic. It's a concept perfectly accepted in other RP environments, but in Gor, people tend to oppose (as they often oppose to the use of NPCs....). Weird SL Gor....

For me, rpers of SL Gor should not only cease to want to win, but too, consider the realism, the plausibility of a situation where their characters are involved.

As for warriors, I will never assume the character didn't train. By his background, the warrior character trains since his teenage years. Else, he would not be a warrior. It's how it works in my book (and in Norman's Gor). If as FW or slave girl, my character raises a sword against a warrior, even if the player is a lame fighter, I'm totally willing to lose the combat and I will. Because it's realistic and plausible in the culture of Gor. I could maybe down the guy, but would I have fun in playing such a silly scene? No.

Losing or winning doesn't matter to me, What matter is the story and how it will challenge my creativity.
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Kharas
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« 08. July 2017, 09:30:04 »
I think you didn't get my point.  The problem of these snowflakes is that they complain a lot as soon as they are faced with their oddities, They don't accept they are odd, they don't accept they don't fit the Gorean culture. They refuse to RP their weirdness the way it will make them fit this culture.

As I said, if these people start complaining about how we should "let them have their own style" or whatever, then yeah that's a problem.  If they're willing to accept IC consequences for it, then I say let them do their thing.

Let's take your Kung fu master barbarian girl as an example. If the sim allows earth folks, then I don't see why an earth person who had learned martial arts and can handle him/herself would be a problem. But the person playing said character should be aware that if she unleashes her kung fu fury on a free she'll likely be killed. If she can accept that then I say go for it. If that results in her complaining about how they're not letting her play her character blah blah blah, that's a problem.

So, let's say such an approach to a character results in a confrontation with, let's say, a warrior, and they have a metered fight. If the losing side complains about how "given my role and background you shouldn't have won," then we got a problem.  But if both sides are willing to honor the result of the contest, I don't see the problem and I say let them hash it out and go with it, even if the barbarian girl is the winner. I'd say in that situation, that warrior sucked in his role and needs to train harder.  This has always been one of my biggest complaints about what I saw so often in SL Gor; people making OOC stinks about BTBness in issues that really could have been handled with IC consequences.

I'm personally tired of FW wearing heavy makeup, wearing a corset, not veiled because they have been told that low caste FW don't veil (and the books explain in what consequences, these FW may not wear a veil), of slaves who fear nothing and are never tormented by their sexual needs, of men who are prude and consider slave girls not like desirable women they would like to fuck but as servants for drink and laundries.

There are oddities you can deal ICly if the player is aware to be out of the norm and will accept consequences. But most times, the player refuses to acknowledge their oddity. It's usually the case of FW players who wear loose hair and / or a sheer veil and argue that it's perfectly BTB for a FW. No it's not, it's not even plausible. So, unless you want to involve your character in a silly scene that doesn't make sense, better just walk away.

Again to me these are issues that could be handled ICly.  Turn them in.  Let a local slaver or warrior or whoever would be the authority in this matter know that there's someone dressed like a slave.  They will go talk to the woman, and if she refuses to concede, then take her to the kennel and make her a slave.  If she accepts it, then we're good.  If she then complains OOCly about how we should be letting her have her freedom to play her character however she wants, kick her ass out the sim; and not because she didn't conform to particular standards, but because she didn't accept the IC consequences of not conforming to them.

As for the meter, no, I disagree with your point. Anyone can be skilled with a meter. It doesn't give you an excuse to st a situation which is unrealistic. A slave girl picking up a sword and defeating two warriors in an IC scene is not a plausible situation in Gor. Not even a chance. You must reconcile your meter combat skills with the character you play. And it's when we reach the GM limits. It's impossible... So, you are a skilled GM fighter, you play the average scribe, but you have a sword (and in his background, your char never trained) and you down a warrior ? It's stupid.

I see no reason justifying that the meter should impose you the choice of a character. I met men playing a warrior and playing is wonderfully well. But for X reasons, from lack of time to practice or a PC which causes lag, they were not great at GM combat.

And don't make me wrong, I'm not anti-meter. I think a raid is something funny to play or watch (especially when well organized with a purpose, a stake....) I raided in GE and got a lot of fun and excitation. But in role play, being able to play properly a character, to make it credible, should not be a question of meter skills.

Thing is that goes both ways.  The whole "my character's background should give me such and such advantage" becomes ridiculous.  Let's apply that to another role, like the greens.  I could make a physician but do zero research on anything, but hey!  My character is a physician, so therefore in his past he was trained!  So he would totally know how to deal with this injury, even if I, the typist, don't!  So you should totally give me a pass on all this and just assume that yes I fixed the problem, because due to my lack of free time or whatever, I just don't have the time to get caught up on those things.  But my character, given his background, would know!

Contrast that to a physician whose typist actually took the time to study all the writings about different injuries and medical procedures, familiarized him/herself with the medical equipment of Gor, and actually knows how to handle those situations properly.  We can make all the excuses we want for that first physician about free time and resources blah blah blah, but I see nothing wrong with considering the second physician the superior physician/roleplayer/whatever, and wanting him/her on our sim and rejecting the first, despite both of them having backgrounds that make them equal.

Same goes with meter combat.  We enter this world, we take on the role of a combatant, and we know ahead of time that meter combat is how that plays out.  So, some of us take the time to practice and train in that meter and become skilled at it, understanding that that is a part of our role and responsibilities.  Others just go with "my background makes me a badass" and expects others to bow to them.  That's absurd.  However legitimate the excuse of that second person may be for not being able to practice as much as the other, that doesn't change the fact that the other put in the time to prepare, and therefore deserves the win.

It's why, for a duel, I tend to prefer the text / dices combat with stats determined by your role and background. It's far more realistic. It's a concept perfectly accepted in other RP environments, but in Gor, people tend to oppose (as they often oppose to the use of NPCs....). Weird SL Gor....

For me, rpers of SL Gor should not only cease to want to win, but too, consider the realism, the plausibility of a situation where their characters are involved.

Yes yes we've been through this exercise several times.  Text/dice combat has its own set of problems and is not, in any way, more realistic.  It's more descriptive, which can be fun, but that is not the same as realistic.  Turn-based combat is not realistic.  Completely eliminating the possibility of a sneak attack by requiring the emoting of drawing of a weapon and waiting for a response is not realistic.  Two people having the same chance to win because it depends on the whim of dice and completely ignoring factors like familiarity with the landscape, time and effort put into training, etc. is not realistic.

As for warriors, I will never assume the character didn't train. By his background, the warrior character trains since his teenage years. Else, he would not be a warrior. It's how it works in my book (and in Norman's Gor). If as FW or slave girl, my character raises a sword against a warrior, even if the player is a lame fighter, I'm totally willing to lose the combat and I will. Because it's realistic and plausible in the culture of Gor. I could maybe down the guy, but would I have fun in playing such a silly scene? No.

Not all training is equal.  Not all people going into the same training is equal.  There will always be outliers, people more naturally gifted than others, trained harder and/or better than others, were more dedicated than others, etc. etc. etc.  And in a system like SL Gor, part of that plays out in how much time and effort you put into the preparation of that character, every bit as much as the badass background you give him.  There's no way we can factor that into the rolling of dice (good luck convincing the combatant "who shouldn't be good as the other" that they should be willing to accept various disadvantages in their dice rolls because of their backgrounds), so we let it play out via meter combat, and may the best, most prepared combatant win.

Losing or winning doesn't matter to me, What matter is the story and how it will challenge my creativity.

It's not a matter of winning or losing.  It's a matter of accepting the consequences of your decisions.  One of those decisions includes how much you prepare for your role.
« Last Edit: 08. July 2017, 09:46:41 by Kharas » Logged

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« 08. July 2017, 22:49:07 »
Kharas I co-owned and administred BTB sims were I and my partners set standards and I role play in SL-Gor since more 10 yars now. From my experience:

- Snowflakes don't accept consequences
- Snowflakes claim they have read the books
- Snowflakes have a bunch of friends who RP with them and support them IC and OOC
- In dealing IC, you will be the one, at the end, who will be "proved" wrong.
- Those who know their shit don't want to bother. I have friends who refuse to deal with snowflake FW because they are tired of the OOC bullshit they get every time and consider these players are just not worth their time.

Not to mention that these situations should not happen. There is only in SL Gor that you can start RP without knowing your role, without having studied seriously the environment and wrote a background that have to be approved by the admins.
It's for sim owners to enforce standards and select their players.

Regarding meter and character background. Tell me, why the system I detailed -works- in other role-play environments? Why is it the average combat system ?
I'm speaking of the average background and realism where a scribe/slave/FW should be unable to defeat a warrior and you basically speak of powergaming. Powergaming is a breach to the RP etiquette.
But the text/stats/dices combat is a well balanced system which doesn't give unfair advantages.

In such a system, warriors, following their experience (the age of their character amongst other points) would stand on an equal level with assassins and get an advantage over scribes. Save if the scribe comes with a particular and well built background (in the books, we have the example of the slaver Cernus in Assassins, who, although he was not a warrior -not accepted yet in the caste- was a very skilled blade). And yes, not all people are equal in skills and level of training. It's why you have to write a background and determine your stats. These stats must be coherent with your IC background. You cannot expect if you RP an unexperienced 18 years old warrior, to have the same skill combat than the 40 years old one whose background states that he trains every day, neither. It's where OOC admins have an important role to play in validating backgrounds and states. But these sims tend to attract a mature player base, not people who want to be the best and the strongest ones....

And yes, you could, in a situation opposing two fighters of equal level, fixes the matter with a meter combat. But you're in a meterless sim Smiley

This system is used in other RP environments. How do you think that Gorean meterless sims handled combats? You listed Oasis of the Red Scimitar, in your first post. I was one of its OOC admins, we had high standards, our application tested people's knowledges and required a detailed background. But the sim was meter optional and at the end, none of our players used the meter. We used text based combats (even our outlaws raided in text combat, once). Maybe the key for the success of this system is before all, a mature player base...

Your example of a physician is irrelevant. You have basically a player who studied his role and will be able to play it with realism and another one who didn't bother. You don't involve the use of an OOC tool such as the meter which will give an unrealistic advantage to one of these players (like my example of a slave girl defeating a warrior).

My point is -only- about combats. The text combat system  with dices works in many other RP environments and is perfectly realistic. Also, when you speak about having to emote that you draw a weapon and give time to your opponent to react, well, it's a rule which is already required, often, in metered sims. The reason is not only to give a fair chance to both players, but realism as well. In a real combat situation, there is few chances that your opponent misses the moment where you draw your sword, that he will see and hear, and react to. In a metered attack, you are down by the guy in front of you while you were still typing your post. I have been called many times, in RP sims where I was a moderator, over these issues. They are dealt like bad form RP. To avoid these OOC issues, some sims enforce an emote rule before you draw a weapon with the obligation to give time to your opponent to read this emote and react.

The Gorean meter, still, is criticized a lot and over the years, we got scripters who tried to create more realistic meters which relied on people's roles. It failed, not because people didn't like these meters, but more, I think, because only a minority of sims adopted them, forcing people who traveled to switch meter and get familiar with a new system. You spoke about a new meter, the zCZ, I guess. I never heard about, as, since a few months, I only do private RP in private places, or in other RP environments. But maybe does it answers to people's expectations in terms of realism in combats.

I understand you don't like this combat system and it's fine, to each their fun. Just please, don't say it's not realistic and doesn't work. Actually, it's applied with success in many other RP environments which don't use a meter, as well for weapon combats and spells (magic).

But anyway, there is no meterless Gor sim actually. So, you won't have to deal with that system you dislike Smiley


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Kharas
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« 09. July 2017, 06:22:41 »
Kharas I co-owned and administred BTB sims were I and my partners set standards and I role play in SL-Gor since more 10 yars now. From my experience:

- Snowflakes don't accept consequences
- Snowflakes claim they have read the books
- Snowflakes have a bunch of friends who RP with them and support them IC and OOC
- In dealing IC, you will be the one, at the end, who will be "proved" wrong.
- Those who know their shit don't want to bother. I have friends who refuse to deal with snowflake FW because they are tired of the OOC bullshit they get every time and consider these players are just not worth their time.

"From my experience" being the key words there.  As in, not universal by any stretch of the imagination, and seemingly limited to you and your friends.  Plenty of examples of snowflakes being willing to accept consequences as well as BTB folks willing to go along with it as long as consequences are accepted.

Not to mention that these situations should not happen. There is only in SL Gor that you can start RP without knowing your role, without having studied seriously the environment and wrote a background that have to be approved by the admins.
It's for sim owners to enforce standards and select their players.

That's right.  It is for the sim owners.  If the sim owner has allowed such a player into their city, that is their fault and not the fault of the player.  The player can come up with any crazy background he or she wants, it's just a matter of finding a sim that will accept it.

Regarding meter and character background. Tell me, why the system I detailed -works- in other role-play environments? Why is it the average combat system ?
I'm speaking of the average background and realism where a scribe/slave/FW should be unable to defeat a warrior and you basically speak of powergaming. Powergaming is a breach to the RP etiquette.
But the text/stats/dices combat is a well balanced system which doesn't give unfair advantages.

In such a system, warriors, following their experience (the age of their character amongst other points) would stand on an equal level with assassins and get an advantage over scribes. Save if the scribe comes with a particular and well built background (in the books, we have the example of the slaver Cernus in Assassins, who, although he was not a warrior -not accepted yet in the caste- was a very skilled blade). And yes, not all people are equal in skills and level of training. It's why you have to write a background and determine your stats. These stats must be coherent with your IC background. You cannot expect if you RP an unexperienced 18 years old warrior, to have the same skill combat than the 40 years old one whose background states that he trains every day, neither. It's where OOC admins have an important role to play in validating backgrounds and states. But these sims tend to attract a mature player base, not people who want to be the best and the strongest ones....

Tell me, where did I say it -wouldn't work-?   What I said is that the idea that that's one way to go and assuming it's "more realistic" is delusional.  Keep in mind this is SL Gor we're talking about, so talk of realism is a little bit laughable to begin with.  Secondly, realism will be subjective to the individual player.   The assumption of hierarchy works in a system where there is zero variety.  To put it in Dungeons and Dragons terms, it's like assuming every character class began with set stats.  But they don't, they roll to see which stats they get.  Why?  Because there will always be variety.  Maybe some will be able to get the archetypical Fighter with 18 to STR, making them fierce attackers, while another fighter might have lower STR but higher DEX and CON, making them more defensive.  There will always be outliers.  To assume a hierarchy ignores that possibility, and that is far from realistic.

And yes, you could, in a situation opposing two fighters of equal level, fixes the matter with a meter combat. But you're in a meterless sim Smiley

In the original posts, there was zero assumptions of what kind of sim we're on, so this sentence has zero value.  We're talking about how ideas work, not what's allowed in the hypothetical sim we're on. Smiley

This system is used in other RP environments. How do you think that Gorean meterless sims handled combats? You listed Oasis of the Red Scimitar, in your first post. I was one of its OOC admins, we had high standards, our application tested people's knowledges and required a detailed background. But the sim was meter optional and at the end, none of our players used the meter. We used text based combats (even our outlaws raided in text combat, once). Maybe the key for the success of this system is before all, a mature player base...
* Kharas sighs.

Again.  Show me where I said that meterless sims is a problem.  I said it's not anymore "realistic" and has its own set of problems.

Your example of a physician is irrelevant. You have basically a player who studied his role and will be able to play it with realism and another one who didn't bother. You don't involve the use of an OOC tool such as the meter which will give an unrealistic advantage to one of these players (like my example of a slave girl defeating a warrior).

It is completely relevant.  You're assuming a uniform set of RP tools between different roles.  Some roles, like the physician, the merchant, in many cases the builders, etc., the only necessary tool is text.  You can't assume that for every other role.  Combatants need a way to determine results off battles, which isn't always feasible with text only.  In a metered sim environment, the study of the meter, is every bit preparing for the role as the physician studying medical aspects.  It's a matter of learning to play your role properly.

My point is -only- about combats. The text combat system  with dices works in many other RP environments and is perfectly realistic. Also, when you speak about having to emote that you draw a weapon and give time to your opponent to react, well, it's a rule which is already required, often, in metered sims. The reason is not only to give a fair chance to both players, but realism as well. In a real combat situation, there is few chances that your opponent misses the moment where you draw your sword, that he will see and hear, and react to. In a metered attack, you are down by the guy in front of you while you were still typing your post. I have been called many times, in RP sims where I was a moderator, over these issues. They are dealt like bad form RP. To avoid these OOC issues, some sims enforce an emote rule before you draw a weapon with the obligation to give time to your opponent to read this emote and react.

Right.  Because if I was standing behind you on a crowded street with lots of sounds and noises everywhere on top of which you were distracted by someone else, and I draw my dagger and shove it into your back, the "realistic" thing would be to wave the dagger in front of you and say "hey I'm going to stab you right now, so let's see how you react."

So so so so so incorrect.  In such a situation, "realistically" you will not seeing that coming.  That is a "real combat situation" in which your opponent would absolutely not see, and if the assailant is skilled enough, hear it coming.  And it is one entirely discarded with such weapon draw rules.  And to completely discard that possibility is not realistic.

The Gorean meter, still, is criticized a lot and over the years,

As opposed to dice/text which has just received zero criticism  Grin

we got scripters who tried to create more realistic meters which relied on people's roles. It failed, not because people didn't like these meters, but more, I think, because only a minority of sims adopted them, forcing people who traveled to switch meter and get familiar with a new system. You spoke about a new meter, the zCZ, I guess. I never heard about, as, since a few months, I only do private RP in private places, or in other RP environments. But maybe does it answers to people's expectations in terms of realism in combats.

Y'know I've said it before and I'll say it again, I could care less about realism in metered combat.  I need "realism" in my metered combat about as much as I need to know the battle formations of my little plastic figurines when I play Risk.  It's just a way to determine the results of combat situations, and that's all it needs to be.  Is it perfect?  Far from it.  But consider what it can facilitate that text/dice combat eliminates the possibility of:

Sneak attacks - again, to completely eliminate this possibility is not realistic.
Short battles - in many cases, it's important to dispatch a particular target quickly.  I remember one raid I was a part of, I was one of a few that were assigned to take out the guards in one particular location as quickly as possible.  Had we had to wait around for text and dice, that might have given other guards time to reinforce the ones we were fighting.  The longer a battle goes on, the greater the possibility of metagaming via other people coming in as reinforcements even though "realistically" they would have no idea the battle is even going on.  It would be so easy to abuse a text/dice system by taking your time typing or dragging in NPCs, etc.  Another example, I recall one conversation on this board a while back where an assassin posted a transcript of an attempt at a text kill on his mark, only to have that mark drag in NPC guard after NPC guard to defend her.  This was apparently perfectly within the rules of the sim.
Skill determining battles - again, some people put in the time and dedication to practice and become good at fighting, and that determines who wins.  How do we determine that in text/dice?  By practicing typing emotes?  Increasing you wpm typing speed?  There is no way to account for the actual time and dedication you put into your role, and puts everything on an even, hierarchical field as you just described above, and again, that is not realistic.

etc.

I understand you don't like this combat system and it's fine, to each their fun. Just please, don't say it's not realistic and doesn't work.
* Kharas sighs.

Again, show me where I said it doesn't work.  Though I will continue to say it's not realistic because it isn't.  Seriously, anyone who seriously thinks that turn/dice-based combat is "realistic" is completely out of their minds or utterly ignorant to the realities of what a real fight is like.

Actually, it's applied with success in many other RP environments which don't use a meter, as well for weapon combats and spells (magic).

Did you seriously just use "realistic" and "spells (magic)" in the same frame of mind?  That's... interesting.


But anyway, there is no meterless Gor sim actually. So, you won't have to deal with that system you dislike Smiley


Thank the priest-kings.

Warrior 1: Do not touch my woman again, sleen!
Warrior 2: You threaten me?  That's it.  Get out your dice!!!
« Last Edit: 09. July 2017, 06:26:42 by Kharas » Logged

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« 09. July 2017, 07:46:17 »
Hmmm... Yes, an experience of 10 years of role play in SL Gor, as role player, moderator, admin, and sim co-owner... Indeed, not a good reference at all.... Smiley

And Kharas, when we join a role play environment, we tend to respect its lore and have our characters behave and act in a realistic way, in the context of its lore. So, when you say that the text / dices / stats combat is not realistic, you imply a fail. If my RP, my IC actions are unrealistic, implausible, definitely, something doesn't work, I'm using a sustem which doesn't work.

And excuse me, I should have cleared my point when I used the term of realism. It's of course implied in the context of the RP lore. Sorry, I thought it would have been evident, because else, if this term was used in a general context, definitely, realism wouldbe  no longer possible in fantasy RP environments, Gor as well Smiley (cf. your comment about the spells)

But I'm sorry, in the context of Gor, if you have that slave girl who raises a sword, challenges for example, a member of the black caste, win the combat, you cannot argue there is anything plausible in such a situation, in a culture like Gor. It goes against the whole philosophy defended by Norman in these books.
So, it's why, yes, in such a situation, the meter becomes a silly tool which will cause a non sense and the reason which justifies the advantage of the text based combat system, with stats.

Also, I didn't say that the hierarchy implied the impossibility to win a combat. Read what I said about backgrounds.

About your example of a physician, I'm sorry, it's still irrelevant although I understand where you want to come. If I play a slave girl, but I'm used to practice combats skills, in GE, 3 hours per day, becoming a super fighter. Then, as a slave girl, in a BTB sim, I decide to challenge the 3 warriors around and I down them all. Then the ubar shows up, I down the ubar. And I continue downing all the men around. Finally, my character proclams herself tatrix. I'm pretty sure the whole sim will protest and ask that non sense to be fixed. They will be right. I used OOC skills which should never be involved in my character. I RPed my character in a 100% unrealistic way. In a plausible context,
But if a kajira should not have the background of a strong and very skilled fighter, a physician, however, is expected being familiar with the arts of medecine... It only makes sense for the physician player to know the role and be familiar with the Gorean medecine.
Based on this point, you judge that a warrior or an assassin should become familiar with the meter, else, if a slave girl fights and down them, too bad, their fault, if they were less good fighters than the slave player.... (not to mention that sometimes, your PC can make the difference...)
So, on this last point, I'm sorry, here where I -strongly- disagree with you. Because in this case, the meter conducted to a non sense scene, one which should have never happened with a system based on stats and text combats, where the slave girl would have, of course, lost. You may argue and argue that such situation should be accepted, no, you will never convince me. Not a chance.
 
You don't care about realism in a combat, but about the result. I care and so, those who choose the system of text based combat care as well. It's probably why we cannot agree in this discussion. Also, excuse me, but in my exemple of bad form RP, I was not talking about the guy who comes from nowhere and down you without having even engaged in RP. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about this example is perceived in Gorean sims... Yeah, usually, there too, a moderator is called Smiley Nope, I was speaking of this guy with whom your character is interacting, speaking, etc, and who, suddenly draws his sword. Then, poof, you're bubbled. Ok, the street noises around, but well... The guy is in front of you, face you... In a real situation (in Gor), if you had a sword, you would have probably already, yourself, a hand on your sword pommel....

So, I'm sorry, but yes, when you're familiar with the text / dices / stats, you cannot state it's unrealistic, Actually it is.  And I'm not telling that a meter combat is always unrealistic (if we exclude the detail that most fighters never RP a wound after having been hit a few times with arrows or a sword, laugh). But the meter can enforce as well totally silly and unrealistic situations (as those I described).


Warrior 1: Do not touch my woman again, sleen!
Warrior 2: You threaten me?  That's it.  Get out your dice!!!

I won't insult you in assuming you're serious, there... But I stated my point and we agreed to disagree. I suspect we could continue for days on this model:
- Me: Text/dices/stats based combat is realistic because, blah blah....
- You: No it's not because blah blah....

I doubt we will change our minds and I will never find acceptable a non sense created by a meter (by anything anyway). In my book, slave girls never defeat warriors or assassins in combat, even if the slave player is, OOCly, a excellent very skilled whatever GM fighter with a super gamer PC. If it happens, it's dumb, ridiculous.
(Of course, I assume that losing a GM combat doesn't mean you are usually a lame fighter, neither...)
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Kharas
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« 09. July 2017, 10:17:31 »
Hmmm... Yes, an experience of 10 years of role play in SL Gor, as role player, moderator, admin, and sim co-owner... Indeed, not a good reference at all.... Smiley

Oh please.  We've all seen stuff.  We've all been around.  You have no idea what my background is or what experience I have, all you could know is how old this particular avi.  Get over yourself, your opinion is not any more valid than anyone else's around here.

And Kharas, when we join a role play environment, we tend to respect its lore and have our characters behave and act in a realistic way, in the context of its lore.

Again, that's up to the sim owner to decide.

So, when you say that the text / dices / stats combat is not realistic, you imply a fail. If my RP, my IC actions are unrealistic, implausible, definitely, something doesn't work, I'm using a sustem which doesn't work.

So, I'm sorry, but yes, when you're familiar with the text / dices / stats, you cannot state it's unrealistic, Actually it is.

It's really not.  And you continue to discredit yourself and continue to prove your delusion and/or cluelessness about real combat by insisting on it.

Here's the thing.  You continuing to say "yes it is realistic" doesn't mean anything.  Actual evidence does.  I've demonstrated how there are aspects off real combat that text/dice/stats combat eliminated the possibility of.  Rather than demonstrating either a) those things don't actually happen in real combat or b) how the text/dice/stats system does in fact accommodate these things?  Are you going to actually, you know, make an actual logical argument that illustrates the realism of text/dice/stats or are you just going to keep saying "oh I'm sorry but you're wrong, it is realistic" like that's supposed to mean something to anyone.

And excuse me, I should have cleared my point when I used the term of realism. It's of course implied in the context of the RP lore. Sorry, I thought it would have been evident, because else, if this term was used in a general context, definitely, realism wouldbe  no longer possible in fantasy RP environments, Gor as well Smiley (cf. your comment about the spells)

Secondly, realism will be subjective to the individual player.   The assumption of hierarchy works in a system where there is zero variety.  To put it in Dungeons and Dragons terms, it's like assuming every character class began with set stats.  But they don't, they roll to see which stats they get.  Why?  Because there will always be variety.  Maybe some will be able to get the archetypical Fighter with 18 to STR, making them fierce attackers, while another fighter might have lower STR but higher DEX and CON, making them more defensive.  There will always be outliers.  To assume a hierarchy ignores that possibility, and that is far from realistic.
Smiley

But I'm sorry, in the context of Gor, if you have that slave girl who raises a sword, challenges for example, a member of the black caste, win the combat, you cannot argue there is anything plausible in such a situation, in a culture like Gor. It goes against the whole philosophy defended by Norman in these books.
So, it's why, yes, in such a situation, the meter becomes a silly tool which will cause a non sense and the reason which justifies the advantage of the text based combat system, with stats.

It's plausible because it happened.  In a completely even system (by that I mean no sim rules about roles, the meter is end-all), you make something plausible by making it happen.  Your assumption that it should never ever under any circumstances happen because everything in Gor happened a particular way and there could be no outliers is as silly as saying this is something that could normally, realistically happen.  Again, text/dice/stats are not the end-all fixer you think it is.

Also, I didn't say that the hierarchy implied the impossibility to win a combat. Read what I said about backgrounds.

I did.  Read my response to it.

About your example of a physician, I'm sorry, it's still irrelevant although I understand where you want to come. If I play a slave girl, but I'm used to practice combats skills, in GE, 3 hours per day, becoming a super fighter. Then, as a slave girl, in a BTB sim, I decide to challenge the 3 warriors around and I down them all. Then the ubar shows up, I down the ubar. And I continue downing all the men around. Finally, my character proclams herself tatrix. I'm pretty sure the whole sim will protest and ask that non sense to be fixed. They will be right. I used OOC skills which should never be involved in my character. I RPed my character in a 100% unrealistic way. In a plausible context,
But if a kajira should not have the background of a strong and very skilled fighter, a physician, however, is expected being familiar with the arts of medecine... It only makes sense for the physician player to know the role and be familiar with the Gorean medecine.

Oh the player doesn't need to.  His/her character will.  See?  He/she has a background in medicine, and has 18 to INT and WIS to boot!  It doesn't really matter what the typist knows, the character knows it all.  It's in his/her background!

Based on this point, you judge that a warrior or an assassin should become familiar with the meter, else, if a slave girl fights and down them, too bad, their fault, if they were less good fighters than the slave player.... (not to mention that sometimes, your PC can make the difference...)

So, on this last point, I'm sorry, here where I -strongly- disagree with you. Because in this case, the meter conducted to a non sense scene, one which should have never happened with a system based on stats and text combats, where the slave girl would have, of course, lost.

Um actually no.  That's not true.  She would not "of course" have lost, that really depends entirely on the sim rules.  In situations where combat is determined by dice, there is always the chance the underdog could win because of the whim of dice.  Even if an unarmed kajira attacks a fully armed warrior with nothing but her fingernails and teeth, the beauty of dice is that she may end up rolling (again to put it in D&D terms) nat 20s and pull it off.  If you eliminate that possibility altogether and make a strict rule that a slave can never beat a warrior, then stats, text, dice, all become obsolete, and once again it becomes a strictly hierarchical system by which certain roles are simply untouchable to other roles.  Which again, would be unrealistic.

But then again, given that you are the person who seriously thinks turn/text/dice-based combat is "realistic," i.e. reflective of what a real combat situation would look like, I'm sure this explanation of realism is similarly just lost on you.  Smiley

You may argue and argue that such situation should be accepted, no, you will never convince me. Not a chance.

Well, again, given that I'm talking to the person who is seriously, continuously insistent that turn-based, text-based, dice-based combat is seriously reflective of what a real combat situation would look like, this isn't exactly unexpected.  Smiley
 
You don't care about realism in a combat, but about the result. I care and so, those who choose the system of text based combat care as well. It's probably why we cannot agree in this discussion.

Well that, and the inconceivable notion that someone is truly, seriously, honestly under the impression that text/dice/stats is a "realistic" depiction of combat.  I mean seriously... seriously... turn-based combat... realistic?  The results being entirely based on the whim off dice... realistic?  My goodness.

I can totally understand the allure of text/dice.  It definitely solves many problems including many that you mentioned which I agree are indeed often problems in combat settings but let's not kid ourselves with delusions of grandeur.  There is nothing "realistic" about text/dice based combat.  It's expedient and useful on numerous levels, but so is metered combat.  Neither are "realistic".  I'll say it again.  Anyone who seriously thinks either of those methods are "realistic" are completely clueless.

Also, excuse me, but in my exemple of bad form RP, I was not talking about the guy who comes from nowhere and down you without having even engaged in RP. I'm sure I don't need to tell you about this example is perceived in Gorean sims... Yeah, usually, there too, a moderator is called Smiley Nope, I was speaking of this guy with whom your character is interacting, speaking, etc, and who, suddenly draws his sword. Then, poof, you're bubbled. Ok, the street noises around, but well... The guy is in front of you, face you... In a real situation (in Gor), if you had a sword, you would have probably already, yourself, a hand on your sword pommel....

Uh actually were not talking about specific situations, we were demonstrating what can or cannot be done given meter and text-based systems.  So you may not have been talking about such a situation, but I was.  Sure, in a situation where there is an ongoing combat situation, there is no possibility you will not see them draw their weapons.  But to make a "emote drawing weapon and wait for response" rule that applies across the entire sim assumes that any combat situation will happen in that exact situation.  That's not always going to happen.  There will be reasons and situations which call for one side to sneak up behind the other and try to sucker punch them.  By establishing this kind of rule, the possibility of that perfectly realistic situation is completely eliminated.  And that, is not realis- oh hell looks who I'm talking to.  Next.


  And I'm not telling that a meter combat is always unrealistic (if we exclude the detail that most fighters never RP a wound after having been hit a few times with arrows or a sword, laugh). But the meter can enforce as well totally silly and unrealistic situations (as those I described).
* Kharas sighs.

You really like assuming things people never actually said don't you.  By all means show me where I ever lauded the realism of metered combat.

I won't insult you in assuming you're serious, there... But I stated my point and we agreed to disagree. I suspect we could continue for days on this model:
- Me: Text/dices/stats based combat is realistic because, blah blah....
- You: No it's not because blah blah....

Actually, the model has been more like:

- You: Text/dices/stats based combat is realistic.
- Me: No it's not because blah blah....
- You: Text/dices/stats based combat is realistic.

But continue.

I doubt we will change our minds and I will never find acceptable a non sense created by a meter (by anything anyway). In my book, slave girls never defeat warriors or assassins in combat, even if the slave player is, OOCly, a excellent very skilled whatever GM fighter with a super gamer PC. If it happens, it's dumb, ridiculous.
(Of course, I assume that losing a GM combat doesn't mean you are usually a lame fighter, neither...)


And I will continue to find it laughable that there are people walking this earth who think turn-based text-based dice-based combat is seriously realistic... to the point that they pat themselves on the back for providing such a realistic combat experience.
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« 10. July 2017, 00:33:00 »
Quote
Kharas: Skill determining battles - again, some people put in the time and dedication to practice and become good at fighting, and that determines who wins.  How do we determine that in text/dice?  By practicing typing emotes?  Increasing you wpm typing speed?  There is no way to account for the actual time and dedication you put into your role, and puts everything on an even, hierarchical field as you just described above, and again, that is not realistic.

That right there is the root of the problem. How to determine who wins a fight. Meter sucks...so does dice if we have two combattants who both refuse to lose. And there we have it. If both refuse to lose you can make up a thousand ways to illustrate a fight in any rp environment - and neither of them will ever work. Realism or not.

Meter is great for huge fights like raids. Turning those into dice combat would be rediculous although I know some have tried and a few perhaps even succeeded - I'll point up to the quote and the comment and go "Because not everybody insisted on winning it worked" it also likely took hours and hours ...and hours to play out.

Dice combat is great for roleplay where timing is not super important. And id like to point out you can have a perfect "surprise" attack in dice combat, or just in rp combat where no dice needs to be invovled. It comes down to the original premise again - will the victim accept the surprise attack? Want to be on the safe side you warn the typist: "Hey I am about to have my char jump yours and slid her throat - are you up for that?"

Her character can still be surprised even if the typist is not. OOC/IC seperation allows for those sort of tricks. You can argue the game is less fun when the typist is not also surprised. If you want that then sure go for meter combat. But you will likely face more disgruntled players raging in your im than the other version where you might be able to build awesome storylines with people who will have as much fun writing them with you as your having.

My example is crappy since meter or dice or rp few would be just fine and dandy with having their char killed out of nowhere. Even if that is a realistic scenario. So...you modify it a bit to make it playable - "Hey my char is about to jump your char to put a dagger to her throat and rob her for all her valuables - are you up for that story?"

It's a mutual thing - you win some you lose some. Point is to make it fun in some way for all.

Training for meter combat is tedious and frustrating in my opinion. Id rather ....what was the term...get it on with a slave or a fw - or a man or a tharlarion....whatever roleplay scenario i can find - not neccesarily involving sex mind you. My SL time is limited and I won't waste hours pissing around after a moving target clicking my mouse at an insane rate. I dont find fun in that at all.

If my char was a warrior i WOULD spend time researching that role. I would reread about the role in Gor books. I might study fighting techniques and ancient warfare to give my char some background and my rp some detail. But studying meter fight is not making me a better warrior. It's making me a good OOC fighter that i might turn out a winner when faced with other meter fighters. It really has nothing to do with my chars skills. And since i never train i have gotten used to my badass brute of a char always losing since nobody else seems to be ok with doing that *shrugs*. I guess at this point he's a perfect anti hero.

Transfering that mindset of training to the physician you mentioned Kharas. The player who just jumps in claiming to be physician without knowing shit about first aid or medicine in the first place will be able to play his role. But he will not be able to add much detail to the part of his roleplay that deals with the chars craft.

The other guy who knows a ton will be able to stick a lot of details in his roleplay and chances are his roleplay will be much more interesting to read because of it....IF he knows to just sprincle details and not just focus entirely on describing procedures because ...really...details are good but it's the story that's interesting - i dont give a fuck if you are crossstitching a bunny over my wound  as long as i know if i am going to live and if its going to scar.

The point is both chars of physicians will be able to create great roleplay. The first guy might focus on other aspects of his character than just the craft of his caste. Physicians might be blackmailing people...might be drunk scoundrels...might be spying on someone etc etc etc. All stuff outside the medical rp - but all still stuff that might make awesome stories.

Same with warriors. I dont think its necessary to train the mouse clicking game to make a badass warrior. It IS sad that the present and as long back as i remember SL Gor roleplayers never even imagined to make room for such a char unless his typist was a badass clickety click hero too. The rp game lost a lot of possible great fun scenarios because of this i fear.

And it's not true by the way that there's no meter optional gorean sims these days.
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Kharas
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« 10. July 2017, 09:33:35 »
I don't necessarily disagree with anything you've said. In fact I think you pretty much nailed it in your first paragraph; both approaches suck and leave much to be desired in providing a truly "realistic" combat experience.

Metered combat is definitely not ideal and far from realistic. But as I've shown, it facilitates many perfectly "realistic" scenarios which dice combat can't do. The key thing for me is that it makes the results very clean. There will be a definitive, undisputed winner or loser, which as you and I both noted, is something that could be hung up on a dice-based system.  You are correct that this is heavily dependent on the typists' RP maturity and corresponding willingness to lose some, but having been in SL Gor as long as I have, let's just say I have zero faith in people in this respect.

Dice-based systems have their strengths and advantages as well, I just find it laughable that people seriously think of it as a "realistic" system of combat and pat themselves on the back for supporting such a supposedly superior system.

But perfect or not, when a person joins a sim which uses a metered combat system as a combatant, he/she is accepting that one of his/her responsibilities is using that system as a part of their role play experience. And if he/she did not familiarize him/herself with that system enough that they lose in situations where he/she "should have won given their role and background", he/she really only has him/herself to blame.

For many people that's fine. As you said, metered combat really excels in large raids, and that's all some people care about it. For myself, I find a lot of the fun and drama of combat RPs to be in duels and other more small-scale conflicts. I also generally prefer sword fights over bows.  In addition to all that, I knew when I first created Kharas that this character would rub many people the wrong way. He was designed to do that. So I knew individual conflicts would be inevitable. So in preparation to all that, as well as make the combat-trained background I gave him more than just my typing things, I took the time to learn and practice and prepare.

It's ultimately up to the individual preference, but again, it's also then the individual responsibility.  But bottom line, our two current options, meters and text/dice, may be equally unrealistic even if for different reasons, but until some truly "realistic" system is invented, they're what we've got and are stuck with.  So if one wants to excel in their role, it's their individual responsibility to familiarize themselves with them, and their individual faults if they don't (as opposed to being the sims' fault).
« Last Edit: 10. July 2017, 10:09:42 by Kharas » Logged

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« 12. July 2017, 01:11:51 »
Kharas, where did I speak about your own experience for you felt the need to point out that I didn't know about your background, your avatar? When I'm talking of -my- experience, you have no reason to be defensive as if I had attacked yours. I said my experience was one which allowed me to state a few things regarding my observations and situations with which I dealt over the years involving snowflakes. And I stand by my opinion, my experience allows me to express a -valid- opinion about this subject, I don't care if you don't agree. I don't seek your approval. Also, I would like you to stop deforming my arguments in implying I assumed you made comments you never wrote. So, for example, I have re-read my previous post and I can confirm that I never assumed you stated that GM combat was realistic. It's your own interpretation of my words. You stated that text combat was unrealistic and even expressed your satisfaction after I noticed there was no Gor meterless sim anymore (your "Thanks God" spoke volumes). I am only arguing on the arguments you developed so that I may demonstrate that text based combat makes possible a -depiction- of realistic combat better than the GM (which leads more easily to implausible IC situations in SL Gor). I will continue this demonstration, even if you choose to keep ignoring my arguments or seek specious means to assail them.

Is it clear that we have some semantic ambiguity regarding the principles of realism and plausibility in the -context- of role-play.

______________
Definition of realism:
1: the attitude or practice of accepting a situation as it is and being prepared to deal with it accordingly.
2. the quality or fact of representing a person, thing, or situation accurately or in a way that is true to life.

______________

So, in this discussion, you're obviously using the definition 1 in your argumentation to state your point when I'm using the second one.

When you say "It's plausible because it happened.  In a completely even system (by that I mean no sim rules about roles, the meter is end-all), you make something plausible by making it happen."

You are right since the definition 1 applies in this case.

But it doesn't make you right in regard of the Gorean culture (cf. definition 2) and what is plausible within its particularisms. Norman wrote 34 books and he is pretty accurate and coherent with himself when he states that women are physically weaker than men. In his books, his hero, Tarl Cabot, demonstrates this point (2 perfect examples in "Tribesmen"). Norman built a theory, a philosophy, an imaginary world on these differences between men and women.
And you come state that such a situation could happen in Gor (a situation made possible by artificial means of GM combat).
No. Not in the world of John Norman. In SL-Gor, yes, if you let it happen. And definitely, the GM, indeed, can allow it. Chances and probabilities that it happens with the text/dice/stats combat, where the stats will define the strengths and weaknesses of characters, their advantages and disadvantages, are far less like as they will impose you the score you must get when rolling the dice in order to be successful in your action or when your opponent is provided with far more points than you (example of a non fighter vs fighter character). You may argue that a victory of the kajira is still possible. This is true but these probabilities are negligible (if in a well balanced stats system, your kajira char rolls every time the dice in a way allowing her to win a duel against an assassin or warrior, seriously, take a RP break and go buy a lottery ticket, it's your lucky day). So, even if the outcome is already written by the particular lore of this fictive Gorean world, still, the dice can solve some points, like, for example, the seriousness of a wound, the impact of a hit, its consequences on the physical integrity etc.)

But if your kajira player is a super GE fighter, used to practice her combat skills every day, the average fighters in BTB sim don't stand a chance. And you will be dragged into a situation which Norman would never figure possible. Two or three kajirae whose typists are super GE fighter could even down the whole red caste of a Gor sim... I have yet to see a sim owner allowing that BS, anyway... but “it happened”, and so by your definition,“it's realistic...”

We are in role play to depict our characters in the limitations imposed by the lore. We have to keep in mind what makes sense (plausibility) in the actions and behaviors of these characters. We are tied by the described cultures, customs and mentalities proper to this imaginary world. It's the beauty of role-play, where these limitations challenge our creativity.

Would a kajira never raise a sword against a warrior or assassin? If particular circumstances, it would be plausible. All is a question of context. (I RPed a similar scene, it was intensive and emotionally charged, the GM would have killed the emotional aspect, even ruined the whole scene). Also, I heard of no sim ruling OOC'ly that a slave girl cannot use a sword and try to kill someone. IC laws are not OOC rules. But would she win the combat? Definitely no. Of course, in your book, if it happened (by means of the GM), it would be realistic and the players would have to roll with this nonsense. But with this concept applied to a role play environment, my elf avatar can go visit a Gorean city, a ubara can start a feminist league with the support of the red caste and it will be realistic, since -it happened-.

______________
Definition of plausibility:
The quality of seeming reasonable or probable.
______________

Will the GM always lead to implausible situations? Hell no, of course and I will not denigrate the whole system. But a well balanced system of text / dice / stats based combat will address the particularities of the role you chose to play, the strengths and the weaknesses of your characters, when the GM will ignore them (except with the small advantage given by some sims to male characters).

The text based combat has 2 flaws, from my point of view:
- There is not just one, in SL, every sim owner may make his own
- It can be a bit tedious to handle at the beginning until you become well familiar with it

Also, you are definitely not familiar with the "emote first before attacking" rule. This rule has been applied to discourage pew pew actions in metered Gor sims. To prevent some players taking an unfair advantage in the game. And it allows all combat situations. It's considered good form role play and in many circumstances, it enforces realism (by the depiction we made of realism). Also, as a role-player, I consider that emoting a hostile action, even in a metered context is the norm. As opposed to, say, a CARP sim where I would not expect such courtesies.

Neither do I see how you can state that a text based combat is not a realistic depiction of combat. What depicts a combat in this system is the quality of emotes, the plausibility of the described actions. Not the action of rolling the dice. If your two Gorean fighters start to fart blades from their asses, definitely, the combat is not realistically depicted. It's by your emotes that you perform an action, a scene, realistically -depicted-. And it creates realism reflective of a real combat situation, in the context of role-play.

______________
Definition of depiction:
Representation in a picture or sculpture. Representation in words.
______________


So, let's address this question. As I said, I detailed what I considered realistic in role-play (role-play is the key word, there): An action plausibly depicted by the careful and appropriate choice of words.

Now, it's perfectly clear and certain that a text based combat system will never give you the immersion that many players and especially gamers will get from PC combats. Dice and text do not allow such an immersion. The immersion in PC combat promotes the "ideal" of feeling like you are "really" engaged in a fictional (but functional) combat. Those who insist that combat of the digital sort (via the distinctly unrealistic and perhaps even -more- unequal medium of hardware, connection speeds, and hand-eye coordination, the mouse becoming a symbolic representation of your weapon) lends to this kind of "immersion", tend to overlook the aspects of realism achieved by the use of words, sentences, paragraphs. They don't want this kind of realism (via depicted imagery), but, rather, the feeling of this artificial combat (which is perfectly fine).

"Realism" in the literal sense of this word, in fact, would mean that we actually got hit by every arrow or blade that struck our avatar, ideally, we, the typists, would be those holding the sword, the bow, running, sweating, etc. So of course, we cannot achieve this conception of realism in a video game and none of the combat systems will ever be realistic. We have only the possibility to depict the –image- of realism. And in this context, the text combat system allows it, unlike the meter.
But both systems have their supporters.

I saw that you received a reply to your post on the Gorean forums... The author reported a silly situation which happened to his character in a Gor sim. I wonder what he would think of your conception of realism and plausibility applied to his role-play experience...


Quote
Kharas: Skill determining battles - again, some people put in the time and dedication to practice and become good at fighting, and that determines who wins.  How do we determine that in text/dice?  By practicing typing emotes?  Increasing you wpm typing speed?  There is no way to account for the actual time and dedication you put into your role, and puts everything on an even, hierarchical field as you just described above, and again, that is not realistic.


That right there is the root of the problem. How to determine who wins a fight. Meter sucks...so does dice if we have two combattants who both refuse to lose. And there we have it. If both refuse to lose you can make up a thousand ways to illustrate a fight in any rp environment - and neither of them will ever work. Realism or not.


Totally, it's why a system of stats or points, based on your character (fighter, non fighter, man, woman...) is often added. But I noticed that text meter combat supporters tend usually to show some maturity.


Dice combat is great for roleplay where timing is not super important. And id like to point out you can have a perfect "surprise" attack in dice combat, or just in rp combat where no dice needs to be invovled. It comes down to the original premise again - will the victim accept the surprise attack? Want to be on the safe side you warn the typist: "Hey I am about to have my char jump yours and slid her throat - are you up for that?"

Her character can still be surprised even if the typist is not. OOC/IC seperation allows for those sort of tricks. You can argue the game is less fun when the typist is not also surprised. If you want that then sure go for meter combat. But you will likely face more disgruntled players raging in your im than the other version where you might be able to build awesome storylines with people who will have as much fun writing them with you as your having.

Yes! Personally, I favor the text where you can express your character's emotions, feelings, describe your reactions... And then, the unexpected can happen and it's what is exciting!

Training for meter combat is tedious and frustrating in my opinion. Id rather ....what was the term...get it on with a slave or a fw - or a man or a tharlarion....whatever roleplay scenario i can find - not neccesarily involving sex mind you. My SL time is limited and I won't waste hours pissing around after a moving target clicking my mouse at an insane rate. I dont find fun in that at all.

If my char was a warrior i WOULD spend time researching that role. I would reread about the role in Gor books. I might study fighting techniques and ancient warfare to give my char some background and my rp some detail. But studying meter fight is not making me a better warrior. It's making me a good OOC fighter that i might turn out a winner when faced with other meter fighters. It really has nothing to do with my chars skills. And since i never train i have gotten used to my badass brute of a char always losing since nobody else seems to be ok with doing that *shrugs*. I guess at this point he's a perfect anti hero.

You so well summarised my position! I think that the RP experience of many of us, would be improved if more warrior players spend less time practicing their metered combat skills and more time studying their role and reading the books.

Transfering that mindset of training to the physician you mentioned Kharas. The player who just jumps in claiming to be physician without knowing shit about first aid or medicine in the first place will be able to play his role. But he will not be able to add much detail to the part of his roleplay that deals with the chars craft.

The other guy who knows a ton will be able to stick a lot of details in his roleplay and chances are his roleplay will be much more interesting to read because of it....IF he knows to just sprincle details and not just focus entirely on describing procedures because ...really...details are good but it's the story that's interesting - i dont give a fuck if you are crossstitching a bunny over my wound  as long as i know if i am going to live and if its going to scar.

The point is both chars of physicians will be able to create great roleplay. The first guy might focus on other aspects of his character than just the craft of his caste. Physicians might be blackmailing people...might be drunk scoundrels...might be spying on someone etc etc etc. All stuff outside the medical rp - but all still stuff that might make awesome stories.

Yes, I totally agree. Personally, I tend to avoid all "medical exam RP" with physicians because I have really no fun with them describing all medical details and gestures. I have had medical exams in RL, it's not fun, I don't log in SL to get something similar via the words... A physician in SL can be uncompetent or even, not practice his caste skills, the caste in Gor, after all, being a matter of birth. Or focus on other aspects (socializing, plotting...) while it's assumed he performs most of his caste work in background.


Same with warriors. I dont think its necessary to train the mouse clicking game to make a badass warrior. It IS sad that the present and as long back as i remember SL Gor roleplayers never even imagined to make room for such a char unless his typist was a badass clickety click hero too. The rp game lost a lot of possible great fun scenarios because of this i fear.
I can't agree more....

And it's not true by the way that there's no meter optional gorean sims these days.

Oh, which ones?
« Last Edit: 12. July 2017, 05:19:11 by Nakshydil » Logged
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