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Author Topic: Mic check part trois  (Read 8967 times)
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Nakshydil
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« 15. July 2017, 01:00:25 »
Not nearly enough (or perhaps, more than enough, depending on your perspective) to believe the text-based combat scenes I've done were anything like/depicting/representing/portraying/whatever word you want to introduce next a real fight in any way shape or form.

You don't answer my question actually. I was asking how you get your immersion in role play. I didn't specifically ask about your combat scenes. I should have clarified, of course, my mistake, we will say (although, I'm no longer interested by the answer...)

Second, I never said that a text based combat was similar to a "real fight". Online, you the typist won't sweat, won't hold a sword, won't run, won't be wounded and won't bleed. You have to represent a reality with your words to make, by its description, the whole scene look plausible. You're confusing the concept of a realistic depiction of an action with a real life experience (cf your "real fight" mention in the above quote).

Also, if you consider it's impossible to achieve the written representation of the realism of a fight, you have to consider as well that it's impossible for any kind of RP scene. By your conception, all rpers in Second Life who consider they depict their character's actions with realism, are wrong. Depicting a combat between two warriors  requires the same RP skills (capacity of emoting) than depicting a chore performed by two slaves. I strongly suspect that you have definitely a different approach, depending the scene depicts a combat or a mundane activity... But as I said, whatever the action, you have to emote and only the subject of your scenes change.

By the way, the use of dice in RP is not limited to the combat scenes.  It may (and generally should) be offer to determinate the success of some particular actions when these actions may impact someone else's character.
Here a very simple and basic example: X spat in Y's drink, behind his back. Y's typist having read the emote, can now roll the dice to determinate if his character will drink the beverage in order to play fair, to give himself or his RP partner, equal chances to "win" or "lose"). I'm always surprised to see that the dice are so seldom used in SL Gor...

Actually I totally got that point. The point that you kept missing is that is a large factor in why text-based combat will ever be realistic.

No you didn't. You keep confusing combat immersion in gaming and real life experiences with the depicting of realism by the means of detailed written descriptions.

You seem to enjoy the "realistic"physical response you get from pew pew combat, like a video game. There are plenty of studies that show pleasure and reward center stimulation from these sort of fake combats. It's nothing like the sort of adrenaline you would get from face to face life and death, of course, but unlike text combat, it's still physically stimulating. Long text descriptions of a hand to hand combat are no where near that real adrenaline. And text roleplaying is only as exciting if you enjoy reading books, if you want to render the depiction of a combat with not only the description of gestures, movements, but the description of the mental of the fighters as well.



Um. Nak. Dear.  Sweetie.

Be mature when you participate in a discussion, do not use this condescending tone nor address your interlocutors with little names.

it is hilarious... seriously hilarious to me that people look at the system they've chosen and consider themselves come gourmet connoisseurs of the RP experience because they did not choose the system that the other side has chosen.  The RP snobbery I find around here sometimes is hilarious and sad at the same time.

RP snobbery... Here we go with those fucking elitists.. Not an argument actually, I would even say a little sneaky personal attack, often tossed at the face of the interlocutors that some people want to destabilize in RP discussions (quite common in SL Gor), because their "old school" online RP culture (para-rpers, text combat supporters, NPC users etc etc) ... Anyway, something is definitely clear:  You and I have a very different approach of role play. That's fine, since years, I found RP partners who shared mine, same for you I suppose. In SL-Gor, we're always the snob / elitist of someone else, anyway. I can live with that.


Consistency. It's a bitch, but y'know it makes things make sense.

I only follow the progression of this discussion where your lack of familiarity with some concepts tend to be demonstrated (for example, when you pretended that some "realistic" aspects of battles could not be -portrayed/depicted/represented- in a dice setting. Rolf, first (I quoted him) then me, explained to you that these situations were perfectly possible to depict in a text based combat (and how), with account of character's trainings and experience, aptitudes etc. Let me quote again Rolf about this particular last point:


If my char was a warrior i WOULD spend time researching that role. I would reread about the role in Gor books. I might study fighting techniques and ancient warfare to give my char some background and my rp some detail. But studying meter fight is not making me a better warrior. It's making me a good OOC fighter that i might turn out a winner when faced with other meter fighters. It really has nothing to do with my chars skills.


It's the way you study and play your role which determinates who is your character, his aptitudes and skills, etc. Oh yes, it takes a mature RPer for not going into powergaming when writing the background of super-invincible-warrior- (and OOC admins who valid the backgrounds detailed in the applications). But I won't base my arguments in favor of a RP system with the non sense of some people.  If we had only to deal with idiots, no project would ever be achieved.

But if you were familiar with the system, your experience would have covered most, if not all, of these situations and you would have realized they are perfectly plausible to illustrate via the means of your prose. At least, not if you rely on your real feelings to decide of the way your character will behave.

Also, I remembered this:


As to the point about real time pressure and such, emoting it and actually making decisions based on it are two entirely different things.  Again to my example of that night when I was fighting the two from Tarnwald and I made a mistake.  In a purely emoted setting, I could, and probably would, argue that my character is very familiar with his hometown and would never have made such a mistake.  So why was that mistake made in the live setting?  Because it was the typist who made it, not the character, who would have risen above it.  Prove that's not true.  I am not a trained soldier irl after all unless you count Mass Effect 3, but Kharas is!!!  The assumption that if you emote feeling the pressure then it's realistic to there being pressure is flawed, because the typist in control of the situation will not actually feel the pressure, which means they won't be making decisions based on that pressure, as I actually had to do that night.

You confuse, definitely, the concept of realistic description/depiction with the real stimulation of the typist. The typist didn't feel the pressure for real, yes. But tell me... Actually, you cannot ignore that you don't need to feel - personally - you - the typist-, the emotions, sensations and feelings of your character in order to describe and play these feelings with a realistic rendering / depiction, when it makes sense given a situation, that your character expresses these emotions, riiight?
 
See, my personal real feelings will never dictate the feelings and actions of my characters. Well, I did this mistake when I was a RP noob, long ago, and by chance I have been corrected by more experienced RPers. It's really sad when your characters are acting wrong in a way that is not very plausible in regard of their nature, personality and culture, because you the typist let yourself being controlled by your own real emotions (those happening in your real life) -or lack of real emotions-.

In RP,  the typists don't need to feel real emotions (pressure in your example) to decide of the way their characters feel and and how to have them behave and react according to the IC context.

So, in a similar scene than yours, I would have personally made a decision based on that pressure, without feeling it myself in real life. Of course, if pressure had been made an evidence for my character to experience (and I tend to think that when a warrior is facing a threat toward his home, there is definitely some kind of pressure). I don't need to experience any kind of particular emotion in real life to know when my characters have to feel pressure, fear, whatever emotion and make them act accordingly. The emotions I feel are similar to those I experience as reader of a good book.
Not to mention that I'm very good at separating IC and OOC and distance myself from my characters, best way to avoid dramas too (my snobbery too, hmmm?)

Once again, real life experience, combat immersion and written depiction of realism in role play are different things.



I had a look. Not a detailed look unfortunately as I won't be able to do that til I get home. But upon a quick, cursory reading of their "World Battle System" overview, one line did stand out to me:

"Unfortunately this also means that the system is inherently flawed, as in order to maintain a more simplistic and user friendly experience, certain generalizations and compromises will have to be made. "
Bravo. They understand this.

Be intellectually honest, you missed to copy past this part (the first lines of this page, actually):

"The ROIAF: Kings Landing Second Life World Battle System (WBS) is designed to allow players to immerse in the realities of combat, and to represent the clashing of armies beyond the walls of King's Landing."

" to immerse in the realities of combat "... Something impossible, from your point of view, in text based combat. ROIAF admins tend to think the opposite. Probably because they are aware that they can only offer the realistic written depiction of combats, not the physical stimulation you would experience in real life.

And the generalizations and compromises have been made on some historical points regarding the way to deal and to adapt them to the system, in the context of SL. Here an example:

MUSTERING
Standing armies did not exist in the Middle Ages. If a lord wanted to go to war, he would have to round up the peasants of fighting age living on his land, arm them and put them on the march.  This process takes time and this system means to simulate such time.  It will take an NPC bannerlord two RL days to gather all available levies at his home seat. However, houses that muster all their troops to home, and leave them there for inordinate amount of time will see a lower morale from his men when he finally goes to war, as well as a loss of food and coin to house and feed these soldiers.
Basically, kind of compromise we do when our Gorean characters travel... We don't spend many days or week to RP a trip from a city to another (of course, you may emote as if your char had traveled for weeks at his arrival in a new place, in your IC introduction post). In ROIAF, you are required two days for gather your NPC banners, not weeks (the way it happened in real life, in the past), not 10 min neither...


But well, just a question of good sense. And note that the use of NPCs is deemed a necessary RP tool, even an evidence in this ROAIF environment. I wonder if SL Gor will, some day, commonly applies the concept. Well, it has already been done, with Illyros, months ago, but not popular amongst Gor rpers and most of the players who joined came from other RP environments. Not a conclusive experience.

Quite a contrast from:

My point is -only- about combats. The text combat system  with dices works in many other RP environments and is perfectly realistic.


I explained this a dozen of times and how to interpret "realism" in the context of RP... Again, and again, refine, clarify, refine more, clarify more. Let's keep trying (for I suspect, the same outcome)...

Just because a person "renders the emotion" they would feel given a situation does not mean said situations being rendered depicts/represents/portrays a situation that is grounded in anything remotely resembling reality.

I will not gainsay this. I never said we could be very descriptive and always depict a realistic situation. It's perfectly possible to depict an unrealistic situation, in role play.

But you should read again the definitions about "realism", "true to life", "depiction", "plausibility" I posted. I won't re-copy past them. They apply to several and different contexts. The role play is one of them since the depiction of plausibility and realism is being achieved with the judicious choice of the words which form our writings. As I said, it's what a writer does when he or she writes a book. Just a writing exercise, at the end.

Because yes, when a scene is -realistically- written, it becomes a realistic representation of the action our characters are performing, combat or not (see again the definition of "representation" I previously copied pasted in one of my previous posts), not a physical simulation with physical stimulation. Here, another little example:


/ me uses a lighter to burn some old papers
<= Realistic depiction of setting fire
/ me pees on some old papers, which makes them burn until they become ashes <= Unrealistic depiction of setting fire.

The same applies to a combat scene. By the mean of written words, the representation, the depicting of such a scene can be realistic (describing the clash of swords, for example) or totally unrealistic (fighters farting poisoned blades out of their asses). Note that the dice may be optional, both rpers may have already agreed on the choice of the winner and loser. But they are still not real actions as they happen in an online setting, not in real life.

Our RP scenes are never real, they have no impact on our real lives, what happens to our characters doesn't happen to us, the typists, of course. But these scenes may just be realistically depicted on the paper (well, on our screens, via SL in this context), with the right and judicious words, sentences, paragraphs we type to form our emotes.

Anyway, have fun keeping masturbating your brain with semantics. We will never convince each other, especially since our RP approaches are definitely opposed. This discussion is a waste of time and definitely not worth mine. Next week-end and week are gonna be crazy busy for me, so, this time, I'm definitely done and I will not even bother reading your next post.


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Kharas
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Beatnik of Gor


« 15. July 2017, 06:13:38 »
You don't answer my question actually. I was asking how you get your immersion in role play. I didn't specifically ask about your combat scenes. I should have clarified, of course, my mistake, we will say (although, I'm no longer interested by the answer...)

The answer about the combat scenes illustrates my level of immersion.  It could be applied across the board, really.  If my answer was "I really fell in love with my FC" or "I got really angry when these outlaws stole my city's homestone," or something like that, that singular example could potentially illustrate how deep a person gets into their RP.

Second, I never said that a text based combat was similar to a "real fight". Online, you the typist won't sweat, won't hold a sword, won't run, won't be wounded and won't bleed. You have to represent a reality with your words to make, by its description, the whole scene look plausible. You're confusing the concept of a realistic depiction of an action with a real life experience (cf your "real fight" mention in the above quote).
* Kharas sighs.

But that's really what it comes down to. You're basing your entire premise of "realism" in that emotes can be descriptive. Insofar as the imagery of "/me thrusts the sword forward, angled slightly upwards to thrust into the enemy's sternum." and the corresponding response of "/me lifts his shield in time, causing sparks to fly as the sword blade hits the shield and deflects it" is more realistic than the image of one person crouch-walking towards the other and blocking and swinging at the same time as the other person does the same, yes, that paints a more realistic picture. I don't really think anyone would dispute that.

So in my entire explanation in which I tried to explain all the details and possibilities that are completely missing in text-based combat that are ever-present in real combat, the only thing you could extrapolate from it was how the entire scenario was implausible to begin with, rather than focusing on the demonstrated pluses and minuses in the mechanics of text-based combat.

How it's ignored that the implications of those above mechanics which I described would in fact affect what is emoted, making the emotes themselves, in addition to the experience, far from "realistic" even in its -depiction-.

But that's okay.  If you seriously think those turn-based emotes and the images they invoke are seriously realistic -depictions- of a real fight, let's pray you never have cause to find out just how adorably absurd that really is.   Smiley  Sweet dreams dear.

Again people can immerse themselves as much or as little as they want.  But if you seriously believe your text-based combat depicts/represents/portrays realism, you're out of your mind.

I've addressed your adjusted/clarified/however you want to think of it understanding of realism several times now.  An individual description of an individual action having some level of accuracy to it is not the same thing as the RP system as a whole being realistic.  And yes, you were referring to the RP system as a whole, not descriptions of individual actions:

My point is -only- about combats. The text combat system  with dices works in many other RP environments and is perfectly realistic.

So, I'm sorry, but yes, when you're familiar with the text / dices / stats, you cannot state it's unrealistic, Actually it is.[/b]

Also, if you consider it's impossible to achieve the written representation of the realism of a fight, you have to consider as well that it's impossible for any kind of RP scene. By your conception, all rpers in Second Life who consider they depict their character's actions with realism, are wrong. Depicting a combat between two warriors  requires the same RP skills (capacity of emoting) than depicting a chore performed by two slaves. I strongly suspect that you have definitely a different approach, depending the scene depicts a combat or a mundane activity... But as I said, whatever the action, you have to emote and only the subject of your scenes change.

Ah.  You strongly suspect.  An improvement from the usual "you clearly ___________".  We're learning, that's good.

Anyway, to some degree, yes.  SL text-rp is turn-based.  And especially where the standard has become these long, drawn-out emotes are considered rp skills, events in life do not play out the way it does in rp.  For example, you think sex actually looks like that?  Again, individual descriptions, sure.  I touch this, she makes that sound, I kiss this, she sucks that... these individual actions can be reflective of things that might happen in real life, hence "depict realism".  But so because they're happening in a turn-based setting, they will never play out the way they actually would irl.  It's the same with fighting.  "I swing the sword" is realistic.  "I block it with my shield" is realistic.  To think that the way those actions actually play out in the sequence and manner required by RP "depicts realism" in any way is seriously, seriously, laughable.

You seem to enjoy the "realistic"physical response you get from pew pew combat, like a video game. There are plenty of studies that show pleasure and reward center stimulation from these sort of fake combats. It's nothing like the sort of adrenaline you would get from face to face life and death, of course, but unlike text combat, it's still physically stimulating. Long text descriptions of a hand to hand combat are no where near that real adrenaline. And text roleplaying is only as exciting if you enjoy reading books, if you want to render the depiction of a combat with not only the description of gestures, movements, but the description of the mental of the fighters as well.
* Kharas sighs.

My enjoyment is irrelevant.  Again:

Anyways Rolf, as before there's nothing you've said that I really disagree with, and you seem to have picked up on the point that I was laboring to get through to Naky; that it's not really an issue of which one's better, more fun, or more effective, as much of that is completely subjective and, as you noted, dependent on the maturity of the roleplayers, but that to say that text-based combat is realistic is laughable.

Be mature when you participate in a discussion, do not use this condescending tone nor address your interlocutors with little names.

Seriously?

Anyway, it's a great day, one where I suddenly realized, with your help (bless you), that a combat in role play, in no way replicated the experience of a real fight! (I would have never guessed...!) I will go to bed in feeling smarter, with a kind thought for all these people who write on their profile, for their RP limits  "keep it realistic"....

How about we refrain from hypocrisy as well k sweetie?  Smiley

RP snobbery... Here we go with those fucking elitists.. Not an argument actually, I would even say a little sneaky personal attack, often tossed at the face of the interlocutors that some people want to destabilize in RP discussions (quite common in SL Gor), because their "old school" online RP culture (para-rpers, text combat supporters, NPC users etc etc) ... Anyway, something is definitely clear:  You and I have a very different approach of role play. That's fine, since years, I found RP partners who shared mine, same for you I suppose. In SL-Gor, we're always the snob / elitist of someone else, anyway. I can live with that.

Oh there's nothing sneaky about it.  It was definitely a dig at a certain class of roleplayers I've seen in SL.

It's the way you study and play your role which determinates who is your character, his aptitudes and skills, etc. Oh yes, it takes a mature RPer for not going into powergaming when writing the background of super-invincible-warrior- (and OOC admins who valid the backgrounds detailed in the applications). But I won't base my arguments in favor of a RP system with the non sense of some people.  If we had only to deal with idiots, no project would ever be achieved.

It's ultimately up to the individual preference, but again, it's also then the individual responsibility.  But bottom line, our two current options, meters and text/dice, may be equally unrealistic even if for different reasons, but until some truly "realistic" system is invented, they're what we've got and are stuck with.  So if one wants to excel in their role, it's their individual responsibility to familiarize themselves with them, and their individual faults if they don't (as opposed to being the sims' fault).

You confuse, definitely, the concept of realistic description/depiction with the real stimulation of the typist. The typist didn't feel the pressure for real, yes. But tell me... Actually, you cannot ignore that you don't need to feel - personally - you - the typist-, the emotions, sensations and feelings of your character in order to describe and play these feelings with a realistic rendering / depiction, when it makes sense given a situation, that your character expresses these emotions, riiight?

See, my personal real feelings will never dictate the feelings and actions of my characters. Well, I did this mistake when I was a RP noob, long ago, and by chance I have been corrected by more experienced RPers. It's really sad when your characters are acting wrong in a way that is not very plausible in regard of their nature, personality and culture, because you the typist let yourself being controlled by your own real emotions (those happening in your real life) -or lack of real emotions-.

In RP,  the typists don't need to feel real emotions (pressure in your example) to decide of the way their characters feel and and how to have them behave and react according to the IC context.

So, in a similar scene than yours, I would have personally made a decision based on that pressure, without feeling it myself in real life. Of course, if pressure had been made an evidence for my character to experience (and I tend to think that when a warrior is facing a threat toward his home, there is definitely some kind of pressure). I don't need to experience any kind of particular emotion in real life to know when my characters have to feel pressure, fear, whatever emotion and make them act accordingly. The emotions I feel are similar to those I experience as reader of a good book.

It depends on what you're talking about.  It's one thing to portray a character acting and behaving a certain way in theory according to the characteristics you have assigned to that character.  It's another thing entirely to actually be in the situation.  So let's take a noncombat example.  Let's say we are looking at a very skilled doctor.  Well he's skilled, experienced, and generally handles pressure well.  Given all those things, it would be perfectly feasible to rp him overcoming the pressure, keeping his head clear and remembering his training, and ultimately making the right decision in the end that saves his patient's life.  A perfectly feasible scenario.  Does that always happen?  Nope.  Patients die all the time in emergency rooms and such because the attending doctors, who may be very skilled and experienced overall, made a bad call in a high pressure situation.  It's something you can never really empathize with unless you're there.

We apply that to combat.  Kharas is a skilled, experienced fighter, having commenced combat training since he was 6 (he was in his early-mid 20s at the time of this scene), was now the veteran of several wars, and knew Port Cos inside out.  So in theory I could have said he'd never make such a mistake, and I'm sure most people would not have disputed that.  It's different when you're actually there.  So yes, you can roleplay characters feeling something, that is not the same thing as you actually feeling something, and because there is that disconnect, you will not always necessarily make the correct decision given all the factors.

I might note this is yet another things I'd explained previously.  Smiley

Not to mention that I'm very good at separating IC and OOC and distance myself from my characters, best way to avoid dramas too (my snobbery too, hmmm?)

Oh you've done a fantastic job of that on this board.

Be intellectually honest, you missed to copy past this part (the first lines of this page, actually):

"The ROIAF: Kings Landing Second Life World Battle System (WBS) is designed to allow players to immerse in the realities of combat, and to represent the clashing of armies beyond the walls of King's Landing."

" to immerse in the realities of combat "... Something impossible, from your point of view, in text based combat. ROIAF admins tend to think the opposite. Probably because they are aware that they can only offer the realistic written depiction of combats, not the physical stimulation you would experience in real life.

Um.  Err.  Uh.  Okay so let me get this straight.  Because it says that that means the other thing said on the exact same page is somehow irrelevant?  That's like your professor saying, "Well you failed your test.  But, I noted you did pretty well in section C" and using that second part to prove how well you know the subject matter in that class.

The part I quoted balances the part you quoted.  It immerses you in the realities of combat but compromises certain issues to make things more user-friendly.  That's how context works dear.  You take everything in a given situation and understand it together.

And the generalizations and compromises have been made on some historical points regarding the way to deal and to adapt them to the system, in the context of SL. Here an example:

Without actually trying this particular system it's impossible for me to really judge whether what you're saying is correct or not.  But a few things.  First, looking at the original quote I made:

"The ROIAF: Kings Landing Second Life World Battle System (WBS) is designed to allow players to immerse in the realities of combat, and to represent the clashing of armies beyond the walls of King's Landing. This system is designed to be as basic as possible in order to allow for a minimal learning curve, and relatively quick results. Unfortunately this also means that the system is inherently flawed, as in order to maintain a more simplistic and user friendly experience, certain generalizations and compromises will have to be made. "

Oh well shoot if the website says it was designed to do so then it must totally be how it is right?  Well gee the designer wanted it that way, so it totally without fail happened exactly the way they wanted it right?  Give me a break.

Anyways, again, context.  The paragraph as a whole is talking about the WBS.  The system, not the historical context.

Secondly, now that I had the chance to read it more in detail, I'm not really seeing much difference between anything it does and most of the other text/dice-based system.  Really it doesn't seem much difference from a Dungeons & Dragons-style combat systems, being based on stats, dice-rolls, etc.  I see nothing here that is some dramatic improvement of realism.  But again, impossible for me to say for sure until I actually see it.  So, if they have in fact achieved some amazing level of realism, then good for them, and best of luck to them.  I'll await the day they bring this to SL Gor so I can have a first-hand look, because whatever the merits of the WBS may be, the text/dice-based system in SL Gor is still absurdly unrealistic.  And I'll say it yet again.  If you seriously think the SL Gor text/dice-based system is realistic/depicts realism/represents realism/whatever other words you want to add, you are out of your mind.

I explained this a dozen of times and how to interpret "realism" in the context of RP... Again, and again, refine, clarify, refine more, clarify more. Let's keep trying (for I suspect, the same outcome)...

And I've responded to every single attempt.  The difference of course that I actually addressed pretty much every word you said.  Your response was always to ignore those responses and just reiterate how realistic text/dice really is.  You did a good job this time around, actually quoting and addressing.  Keep that up and maybe this conversation will actually go somewhere.

I will not gainsay this. I never said we could be very descriptive and always depict a realistic situation. It's perfectly possible to depict an unrealistic situation, in role play.

But you should read again the definitions about "realism", "true to life", "depiction", "plausibility" I posted. I won't re-copy past them. They apply to several and different contexts. The role play is one of them since the depiction of plausibility and realism is being achieved with the judicious choice of the words which form our writings. As I said, it's what a writer does when he or she writes a book. Just a writing exercise, at the end.

And we all know those books never fail to capture realism right?

Because yes, when a scene is -realistically- written, it becomes a realistic representation of the action our characters are performing, combat or not (see again the definition of "representation" I previously copied pasted in one of my previous posts), not a physical simulation with physical stimulation. Here, another little example:


/ me uses a lighter to burn some old papers
<= Realistic depiction of setting fire
/ me pees on some old papers, which makes them burn until they become ashes <= Unrealistic depiction of setting fire.

The same applies to a combat scene. By the mean of written words, the representation, the depicting of such a scene can be realistic (describing the clash of swords, for example) or totally unrealistic (fighters farting poisoned blades out of their asses). Note that the dice may be optional, both rpers may have already agreed on the choice of the winner and loser. But they are still not real actions as they happen in an online setting, not in real life.
* Kharas sighs.

But that's really what it comes down to. You're basing your entire premise of "realism" in that emotes can be descriptive. Insofar as the imagery of "/me thrusts the sword forward, angled slightly upwards to thrust into the enemy's sternum." and the corresponding response of "/me lifts his shield in time, causing sparks to fly as the sword blade hits the shield and deflects it" is more realistic than the image of one person crouch-walking towards the other and blocking and swinging at the same time as the other person does the same, yes, that paints a more realistic picture. I don't really think anyone would dispute that.

But as I've said previously, your mixing up "realism" with "descriptiveness" and those two are not necessarily the same. A very descriptive image can "depict" a very unrealistic situation.  That realistic image is still happening within the framework of a system in which people take turns to make their moves and results are affected by quantified stats (so realistic!), but otherwise even and randomized by dice. No account for specialized training, no account for individual skill and aptitudes, no account for the crazy chaos that ensues in any fight, all of which are very realistic factors in a real fight.

So again, you're assuming that because individual actions within a roleplay is "realistic" that makes the whole framework of the roleplay system "realistic", which is what you claimed:

My point is -only- about combats. The text combat system  with dices works in many other RP environments and is perfectly realistic.

So, I'm sorry, but yes, when you're familiar with the text / dices / stats, you cannot state it's unrealistic, Actually it is.

Doncha just hate it when I have explain something to someone again, and again, refine, clarify, refine more, clarify more?

Anyway, have fun keeping masturbating your brain with semantics. We will never convince each other, especially since our RP approaches are definitely opposed. This discussion is a waste of time and definitely not worth mine. Next week-end and week are gonna be crazy busy for me, so, this time, I'm definitely done and I will not even bother reading your next post.


Cool.  And you have fun masturbating to great sense of victory you've achieved by leaving the silly metered combatants behind and having achieved the true realism of text/dice-based rp.  Oh and thanks for giving us the heads up on your prefab excuse of why you won't be continuing this talk so that everyone knows you could have mic-dropped whatever I said next but won't because you have a life, saving face by making it clear that your lack of a response is not because you don't have one.  Totally believable.
« Last Edit: 15. July 2017, 06:17:14 by Kharas » Logged

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« 15. July 2017, 10:43:07 »
Well I suppose this is the end and the dead horse is REALLY dead now.
It's so dead it reaks and I think a swarm of flies are at it. Great action!

Thanks guys for keeping me entertained during down time on vacation Cheesy

And just a side note:
As a dane I will neverrr understand how endearing terms are used to put people down in the english language. It's so confusing and utterly strange. Not specifically a jab at you two here it's more a general observation from posts here and my own experiences in SL. I am getting to a point where I feel slightly offended if an english speaking person actually utters words hinting they like me. What do you guys tell a person you REALLY like? I mean the opposite liking to the one where you feel they should be shot dead on sight Tongue
Still entertaining within this board argueing context though - so carry on, I think it moved an ear and burbed!

Lets rehash:

Khara argues: There is no realism in SL Gor fighting
Naky argues: There can be (depicted) realism in roleplayed fights

Please correct me if I am wrong - feel free to call me sweetie and dear - I can take it and I crawe entertainment in my worthless empty life Cheesy

*Wanders off to take a look at some river rafting contest in the local river, that just started judging by the loud speakers* Cheesy
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« 15. July 2017, 11:01:33 »
Khara argues: There is no realism in SL Gor fighting

Well sort of.  More that currently, there is no realism in SL Gor fighting.  Maybe there's a system out there that accomplishes some measure of realism who knows.  It's not like I've tried every RP combat system in existence in SL.  And perhaps a system could be developed given SL tools some day, I'd be the last to know as I have zero understanding of coding, scripting, etc.  But the two current standards - meter and text/dice fall really short.  Again, to the point of being laughable that anyone things either are actually realistic.

I'm actually quite curious what the next SL project (Sansar I think it's called?) and its purported VR aspects might add to the combat experience.  One thing I'm curious about that might affect gameplay; I was discussing with a friend about a reported VR Star Wars game in the works and how fun lightsaber battles could be.  But in an actual sword fight, let's say I swing at you and you block, well then my swing would be stopped.  In virtual reality since nothing is physically stopping my swing, I would likely continue through with my swing, even if it's stopped in the game.  This would in turn affect what I do next, since the state off my body IRL would not be the state of my character on screen.  So I wonder how this can be compensated for to create more "realistic" combat physics?  It'd be interesting to see if they can figure something out.

And much of my discussion on this matter happened during my long tedious hours at my office at work. Dude feel free to take another swing at this dead horse aaaaaaaaaaaaaaanytime you like and help the day go by.
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« 15. July 2017, 19:02:02 »
Waggles eyebrows

Now imagine physics that you speak of kicking in during erp'ing too.

Sadly I think the prospects of Sansar is far far from that state still. I went there a few days back when I still had passable internet. Walking is possible, turning too. Camming around is working, it just takes a little getting used to. But forget about running Cheesy I have no idea if the VR might make it all awesome at some point but I don't have that kind of equipment and at the moment I wont get my hopes up for anything groundbreakingly different from SL really.
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« 16. July 2017, 05:43:37 »
Now imagine physics that you speak of kicking in during erp'ing too.

Hahahahahaha oh my the mental image you just gave me.

Wait, is Sansar already out?  I thought it was still in development, or were you referring to a beta testing version?
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« 16. July 2017, 08:43:51 »
Hmm officially no.

I was invited to go there and check it out building an experience. Bad timing for me though with vacation coming up two days later. So that will have to wait for later to poke at.
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« 19. July 2017, 18:30:08 »
Meter combat is one of the reasons why I generally stay away from Gorean RP sims. Not because I'm bad at it, used to be one of the best top ranked fighters on the GM site when I was into it, but just because it fucks with my immersion, realism and storylines.

Meter combat voids the believable presence of NPCs and how they would react or prevent violence in their city or to their superior, and it also takes away a lot of story development that -could- happen during a fight.

It's just not my cup of tea or what I enjoy about RP anymore. I want the story, I want the writing and I want a believable environment, not one where two guys can supposedly fuck up an entire city depending on who is online or not.

Perhaps it's for the better that it keeps me away. I tend to RP conflict and villainous things anyhow and that seems to mess with the "happy ever after"-stories many people in SL Gor prefer to have.
« Last Edit: 19. July 2017, 18:41:15 by Anarch » Logged

"Civilized men, the small and pale, the righteous, the learned, the smug, the supercilious, the weak-stomached and contemptuous, stand upon the shoulders of forgotten, bloody giants." (Beasts of Gor, p.31)
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